Friday, February 05, 2021

Cessna 182Q Skylane II, N4765N: Fatal accident occurred February 02, 2021 in Hackberry, Cameron Parish, Louisiana



This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. 

The National Transportation Safety Board did not travel to the scene of this accident.

Additional Participating Entities: 
Federal Aviation Administration / Flight Standards District Office; Baton Rouge, Louisiana 
Textron Aviation; Wichita, Kansas 


Location: Hackberry, LA 
Accident Number: CEN21LA121
Date & Time: February 2, 2021, 17:44 Local 
Registration: N4765N
Aircraft: Cessna 182Q
Injuries: 2 Fatal
Flight Conducted Under: Part 91: General aviation - Instructional

On February 2, 2021, at 1744 central standard time, a Cessna 182, N4765N, was destroyed when it was involved in an accident near Hackberry, Louisiana. The private pilot and flight instructor were fatally injured. The flight was operated as a Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 instructional flight.

According to a co-owner of the airplane, the private pilot had just bought a share of the accident airplane and was in the process of accumulating flight hours for complex and higherformance aircraft endorsements. He was in the back seat of the airplane the day before when the two accidents pilots were conducting a training flight. He stated that the private pilot completed the flight maneuvers well and he did not notice anything of concern.

According to the airplane broker, on the day of the accident the private pilot called to report that he had just completed a 1-hour flight in the accident airplane to satisfy the insurance policy requirements. The airplane departed from Southland Field Airport (UXL), Sulphur, Louisiana, about 1326 and terminated about 1436. The recorded ADS-B data revealed that the airplane departed again at 1713 and proceeded south toward the Gulf coast. The data showed that the airplane maneuvered near the coast then proceeded north as the altitude and airspeed increased. The airplane reached about 4,500 ft above ground level (agl), as the airspeed decreased. The airplane began a slow descent, which increased rapidly until the final recorded point. In the last 12 seconds of recorded data, the airplane made a right turn and had descended about 3,200 ft. Figure 1 shows the end of the recorded flight track and the accident location. 

Figure 1. The recorded flight track and accident location overlayed on Google Earth.

Two witnesses were in close proximity to the accident site, but different locations, stated that they observed the airplane in a rapid descent with the nose pointed at the ground. They both observed the bottom of the airplane and did not notice any rotational movement.

The airplane impacted soft ground on an island about 1.5 nautical miles northeast of Hackberry. The initial impact crater extended about 15 ft deep and contained a majority of the airplane, to include the engine, propeller, fuselage, and empennage. A debris field that consisted of the wings and smaller airplane components extended about 40 yards from the crater.

The wreckage was recovered to a secure storage facility where an engine and airframe examination was completed under the supervision of a Federal Aviation Administration inspector. The wings had separated from the fuselage and were crushed aft to the rear wing spar. The empennage was crushed and distorted. Flight control cable continuity was established for all flight control surfaces through tensile overload separations in several locations. The fuel selector valve was found positioned to feed from both fuel tanks. The engine sustained significant impact damage and was saturated with mud. The crankshaft sheared aft of the propeller flange. Two of the propeller blades remained attached to the propeller hub and one blade was not recovered. The engine was unable to rotate through due to the impact damage.

Aircraft and Owner/Operator Information

Aircraft Make: Cessna 
Registration: N4765N
Model/Series: 182Q Aircraft
Category: Airplane
Amateur Built: No
Operator: 
Operating Certificate(s) Held: None
Operator Designator Code:

Meteorological Information and Flight Plan

Conditions at Accident Site: VMC
Condition of Light:
Observation Facility, Elevation: KLCH,9 ft msl 
Observation Time: 17:53 Local
Distance from Accident Site: 9 Nautical Miles 
Temperature/Dew Point: 13°C /2°C
Lowest Cloud Condition: Clear 
Wind Speed/Gusts, Direction: 4 knots / , 200°
Lowest Ceiling: 
Visibility: 10 miles
Altimeter Setting: 30.19 inches Hg
Type of Flight Plan Filed: None
Departure Point: Sulphur, LA (KUXL)
Destination: Hackberry, LA

Wreckage and Impact Information

Crew Injuries: 2 Fatal
Aircraft Damage: Destroyed
Passenger Injuries:
Aircraft Fire: None
Ground Injuries: N/A
Aircraft Explosion: None
Total Injuries: 2 Fatal
Latitude, Longitude: 30.009412,-93.330048 (est)

Those who may have information that might be relevant to the National Transportation Safety Board investigation may contact them by email eyewitnessreport@ntsb.gov, and any friends and family who want to contact investigators about the accident should email assistance@ntsb.gov.

Rock Palermo
December 02, 1965 - February 02, 2021

Joseph “Rock” Palermo, III, 55, passed away on February 2, 2021.

Rock is survived by his wife of 27 years, Kim; three children, Rachel Palermo, Ryan Palermo (Madison), and Sarah Palermo; mother, Jackie Palermo; mother-in-law and father-in-law, Jenny and Reggie Keogh; brother, Lance Palermo (Tonia); sisters, Ashley Palermo (Nick Goodling) and Alisha Palermo; brother-in-law, Scott Seeliger (Sheila); sister-in-law, Keri Keogh (Dave); nieces and nephews, Mikayla Seeliger, Mikenna Seeliger, Grayson Palermo, Addison Goodling, and Reid Goodling; aunts and uncles, Mary Ann Fiorenza, Tony Palermo, Sr. (Tina), Gil Manuel (Brenda), Johnny Manuel (Mona), Phil Manuel (Pam), and Matt Manuel (Carey); and numerous loving cousins and extended family. He was preceded in death by his father, Joseph R. Palermo, Jr.

Rock delighted in all things involving his family. He could not have been prouder of his children. He enjoyed every minute spent with them, from discussing politics and world travel with Rachel to attending Ryan’s baseball games to listening to Sarah play guitar and speak the Spanish language.  No words exist to describe the void that will be left by Rock’s absence.  He was simultaneously their biggest cheerleader and real life superhero. A talented photographer, he documented his family’s numerous trips and adventures. An avid SCUBA diver and instructor, Rock first met Kim while teaching her SCUBA diving class.  They introduced their family to the joys of diving.

His most cherished hobby, passed on by his father, was flying. He was happiest in the clouds. He was a certified flight instructor and passed on his joy of flying to many. He was an FAA licensed Airline Transport Pilot with airplane, jet and helicopter ratings.  He was a member of the Civil Air Patrol, the United States Air Force Auxiliary, and held the rank of Colonel. He served as secretary of the board of the Lake Charles Regional Airport Authority. Rock’s love for flying connected him to a childhood dream of policing his neighbors on Palermo Drive. His love for the Calcasieu Parish Sheriff’s Department enabled him to serve his community as Captain of the Aviation Unit.Rock graduated from LSU Law School in 1992 and from LSU with a bachelor’s degree in 1987. While at LSU Law School he was selected to the Moot Court Board. Rock was a respected attorney and member of the Louisiana Bar.  He was a partner in the firm of Veron, Bice, Palermo & Wilson in Lake Charles, and he was a founding member of the Judge Albert Tate Inn of Court. Rock was a member of LSU Law Center Board of Trustees, American Board of Trial Advocates and the Louisiana Association for Justice. He serves on the LSU Law Center Trial Advocacy faculty.

Visitation services will be held on Friday, February 5, 2021, between 4 p.m. and 8 p.m. with a Scripture Service to be held at 6:30 p.m. at Trinity Baptist Church, 1800 Country Club Rd., Lake Charles. Visitation will resume on Saturday February 6, 2021 at Trinity Baptist Church from 10:00 a.m. until 11:30 AM, with a Mass of Christian Burial to be observed at 12 noon on Saturday, February 6, 2021, at the Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception, 935 Bilbo Street, Lake Charles, Johnson Funeral Home, Lake Charles has been entrusted with arrangements. The family respectfully asks that visitors wear masks and practice social distancing, adhering to local regulations regarding COVID-19. 

Rock’s friends numbered in the thousands, and the family wishes it could acknowledge everyone who impacted Rock’s life.  The following individuals will serve as pallbearers:  Jay Bice, Kevin Derousselle, John Emerson, Ellis Hassien, Tony Mancuso, Rob Parrish, Poncho Seaford, and Matt Vezinot.

In lieu of flowers, the family requests that you make a charitable donation to The St. Nicholas Center for Children in Lake Charles, LA (www.stnickcenter.org) or Concerns of Police Survivors (www.concernsofpolicesurvivors.org).

Don Clements
June 12, 1965 - February 2, 2021

Richard Don Clements, 55, a well-respected financial planner and talented musician, died on Tuesday, February 2, 2021 in an aviation accident.

At the time of his death, Don was a partner in the Global Asset Management Group (Raymond James) in Lake Charles, LA. Don, a Certified Financial Planner CFP® professional, had been active in investing and financial planning since 2002.  Don was passionate about helping clients prepare financially for their best life possible. In addition to holding the prestigious Certified Financial Planner® certificate, Don held advanced designations in the field of retirement income planning, RICP®, and retirement plans, CRPC®.  Prior to his career as a Financial Advisor, Don worked as a trader in the energy business, and as a CPA in a public accounting firm. Don graduated with a Bachelor of Science in Accounting from Louisiana Tech University.

On January 30, 1993, Don married the love of his life, Nancy Edith Shaddock Clements, at the First United Methodist Church in Lake Charles, LA.  Little did they know but nine (9) years later, in 2002, Nancy, Don and their two children, Will and Mary Kathryn would become devoted members of First United Methodist Church in Lake Charles. Don was a talented guitarist and was a treasured member of the worship team at First United Methodist Church.

Besides being a talented musician, Don loved to travel, hike, fish and hunt. In 2012 Don completed a lifetime goal of traveling to Africa and climbing Mt. Kilimanjaro.  He was a lifetime member of the Louisiana Coastal Conservation Association (CCA), which is a non-profit organization dedicated to the conservation of Louisiana’s marine resources. Don and his wife, Nancy chaired the Big Lake Invitational Fishing Tournament for many years.   Don was also a proud supporter of the Boy Scout’s of America, and especially proud of his son, Will, becoming an Eagle Scout with Troup 5, which is associated with the First United Methodist Church.   Don was a member of the Krewe of Contraband. One of his proudest moments was in 2016 when he presented his daughter, Mary Kathryn as the Princess “Music of Lincoln Center”. Don was honored in 2015 as a Duke by the Krewe of Mystique for the many contributions he made to the community.  When Don wasn’t involved in hunting, fishing, and music, he was at home in his beautiful rose garden and vegetable garden, which he nurtured in order to bring fresh roses and vegetables on a regular basis to his beloved wife, Nancy.

Don is survived by his wife, Nancy Edith Shaddock Clements, and their two children, Mary Kathryn Clements and William Don Clements.  He was preceded in death by his father, Richard Don Clements, Sr. but is survived by his mother, Carolyn Joy Templeton Clements and his brother, Kirk Alan Clements, both of whom reside in Denton, Texas.  Don was dearly loved by the entire Shaddock family, numerous relatives and friends.

 A celebration of Don’s life will be held on Saturday, February 6, 2021 at 3:00 PM at First United Methodist Church located at 812 Kirkman Street, Lake Charles, LA 70601.  Visitation will be at the church from 12:00-3:00 pm.  Pallbearers are Todd Ammons, Kirk Clements, Bob Harp, Joseph Pousson, Kevin Robbins, and Henry Riquelmy.  Honorary Pallbearers are William Don Clements, William Edward Shaddock, Jr., Stephen Gorham Shaddock, William Edward Shaddock II MD, Brian Ray Jones and William Craig Jones.

In lieu of flowers, donation can be made to the music mission at First United Methodist Church in Lake Charles or to a charity of your choice.

69 comments:

  1. "HACKBERRY, La. (KPLC) - Two bodies have been recovered from the wreckage of a plane that went down near Hackberry Tuesday, Cameron Sheriff Don Johnson said. Rock Palermo and Don Clements were killed in the crash, Johnson said. Palermo was an instructor on the flight and Clements was a student."


    Tue 06:41:31 PM 29.9490 -93.3408 ↑ 351° 110 127 4,225 367 Climbing
    Tue 06:41:50 PM 29.9582 -93.3425 ↑ 352° 116 133 4,275 Level
    Tue 06:42:06 PM 29.9667 -93.3437 ↑ 356° 115 132 4,225 47 Climbing
    Tue 06:42:22 PM 29.9747 -93.3442 ↑ 359° 95 109 4,300 214 Climbing
    Tue 06:42:41 PM 29.9824 -93.3438 ↑ 9° 82 94 4,350 36 Climbing
    Tue 06:43:04 PM 29.9898 -93.3416 ↑ 20° 66 76 4,325 -205 Descending
    Tue 06:43:25 PM
    Tue 06:43:25 PM 29.9947 -93.3391 ↗ 29° 56 64 4,200 -357 Descending

    ReplyDelete
  2. Hard to think of anything that makes sense here. Control malfunction? Run-away trim that led to???

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Extremely unlikely that one pilot would decide to kill himself with another pilot in the plane. It would be much easier to do if you are solo.

      Delete
    2. Easier to commit suicide solo, but looks more like an accident if there are two in the plane. Unlikely, but it is a possibility.

      Delete
    3. Well I guess everything is possible until we know for sure: suicide, murder, kamikaze, paranormal activity, higher calling, medical, etc. etc.

      Delete
    4. Nothing more than an unsupported guess.

      Delete
  3. Simulated departure stall gone bad?
    Very, very strange....

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Carbon Monoxide poisoning possibly? This accident makes no sense at all...

      Delete
    2. I have been thinking the same, it's the only thing that makes any sense

      Delete
  4. It's easy to understand accidents that have a clear path of poor decisions. But it is accidents like this that really perplex me and keep me up at night. An ATP-rated CFI teaching another pilot, good weather, an aircraft known to be fairly reliable and having docile characteristics. It seems like something major must have gone wrong here. I'm left wondering what lessons can I take away from this one to keep it from happening to me when I fly?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It seems me that sometimes, even with all the best preparations, bad luck can find a good pilot. It is a risk that we accept as we enjoy the thrill of flying. Something dramatic clearly went wrong here. I hope the the NTSB will be able to determine a cause other than undetermined loss of control.

      Delete
    2. I agree. These are the ones that really concern me. Im still waiting on the full report from N8991W.

      Delete
    3. Yes indeed! That is the question we would ALL like to know, but the NTSB didn't even bother to go to the accident location. They're not "investigating" anything. End of the "report" will read, aircraft crashed under unknown circumstances. That's all!!!!

      Delete
  5. The report did say that one of the propeller blades was not recovered. Because of this, some have theorized that a propeller failure is to blame for this accident.
    Losing a blade in flight, with the 3-blade, constant speed propeller rotating at 2400-2500 rpm would likely cause a vibration so violent, it could easily render the pilots unconscious and/or damage the airframe/elevator so severely that the airplane would not be controllable.
    If only we could go through the maintenance records and see when the constant speed propeller was last serviced or overhauled.
    I'm sure the NTSB will figure it out, but we'll just have to wait.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Visualize being the FAA rep on scene for parts recovery when the hub was pulled up with one blade missing. Think about the circumstances that would fit with acceptance of not finding the missing blade.

      Examination of the recovered prop hub must have clearly indicated that the blade was thrown during flight, not broken out during impact. Would have been found if present at the impact site.

      Delete
    2. A high-speed, vertical power dive could overspeed the prop, possibly causing something to let go.

      Delete
    3. Dive overspeed certainly could toss the blade. Detailed metalurgical examination of the two blades and hub for known indicators of overspeed may be able to differentiate loss of blade in normal flight from loss by overspeed.

      Delete
    4. At impact, the remaining two blades cause the crankshaft to shear aft of the propeller flange.

      Delete
    5. The third blade was recovered at the crash site, just not by the "NTSB" Who ever recovered the airplane did not do a thorough enough job. Many parts and pieces were left behind at the crash site, including the third blade!!

      Delete
    6. You can be sure that he did NOT find the blade, because he says he left it there.

      No matter how much his soul hates the NTSB, only a cruel ghoul would leave the wreck site without making sure the blade got into hands-on possession of the local FSDO. The grieving families need the analysis to be done on that blade.

      Delete
  6. CG forward of the forward limit? During training, broker was in the back seat with the two in the front. CG was okay. Fatal flight: full fuel and two heavy guys in the front. Loss of elevator authority as speed reduced at 4500 feet. Controls were likely held full aft all the way to impact. My sincere condolences to the families.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Forward CG would make the scenario begin as you describe, but airspeed increase in a dive from 4500 restores elevator authority with plenty of altitude remaining.

      Delete
    2. The last of ADS-B data from Flight Aware only shows the start of the incident. But all the groundspeed points at the end are low. The tail plane remained, perhaps, in an out of stall all the way to the ground. The airplane wing never stalled but remained at a high angle of attack just above stall. The airplane had high sink rate with a relatively flat attitude (nose close to the horizon). If they weren't stuck with tunnel vision grip on full aft yoke, they could have pushed forward and added power to get the tail plane flying again and regained control.

      Delete
    3. CG issue may be it. Regardless of the number of hours and ratings a pilot may have, if they're not comfortable with the plane falling out of the sky with the nose pointed straight down at the ground, the likelihood of a panicked response increases.
      I'm very thankful that I started with gliders (including giving many acro rides) and then flew Caravan jump planes. When the last jumper goes out — or you're doing a hammerhead stall in a glider — and the aircraft is simply falling out of the sky, pointed straight down at the ground, you get comfortable waiting for the wing to start flying before easing back on the elevator. Those without such experience....

      Delete
    4. But in this case, the airplane attitude was flat with nose close to the horizon, wings level (except for the last turn to the east), all the way to impact. Airspeed remained just above wing stall all the way to the ground. No dive.

      Delete
    5. Nothing in the report suggests "airplane attitude was flat with nose close to the horizon."

      Two witnesses observed the airplane in a rapid descent with the nose pointed at the ground. The impact crater is 15 feet deep and wings were crushed aft to the rear wing spar.

      Can't crush wings rearward like that or crater that deep coming in level. High speed nose down impact.

      Delete
    6. Good point, thanks. I missed the nose down attitude observed by witnesses. I only read that the witnesses saw the bottom of the aircraft with no rotation and thought flat attitude. Nose down attitude would be even more likely that the pilots were fixated on full aft elevator. Could forward CG tail stall and slow airspeed be maintained (full aft elevator, lack of elevator authority) all the way to the ground with nose down? Got me back to scratching my head.

      Delete
    7. Forget previous post where I stated "slow airspeed". Clearly this was a high energy impact with nose pointed at the ground. So airspeed likely high and elevator authority should have been present. Again scratching head. I need to wait for Dan (you? lol) to give me the answer.

      Delete
    8. No obvious reason so far for not pulling out from the dive.

      Smoke in the cockpit that turned into a wiring fire behind the panel is a possibility not yet mentioned that might fit the circumstances. If so, the wreckage would bear witness to that once the mud is removed. NTSB should already know if that was evident.

      Still a head scratcher.

      Delete
    9. It would be interesting to see the state of the elevator trim. Perhaps, as a poster mentioned earlier, the trim could be stuck ("runaway") at a nose down attitude for the dive portion of this accident. But a 182Q isn't a 737Max..... couldn't the pilot overcome a stuck trim with elevator input? It would seem the elevator itself could be jammed instead.

      Delete
    10. It's really hard to get a C-182 out of CG.

      Delete
  7. Distance From: 4,325 feet @ 29.9898 -93.3416
    Distance To: Wreckage and Impact Information Latitude, Longitude: 30.009412,-93.330048 (est)

    Calculated Distance Straight line distance: 1.28 miles , 2.07 kilometers (km) , 6785 feet , 2068 meters

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Distance To/From what? Straight line from where?

      Delete
    2. ADS-B data 4,325 feet @ Latitude, Longitude: 29.9898 -93.3416
      Wreckage and Impact Information @Latitude, Longitude: 30.009412,-93.330048 (est)
      A straight line from Latitude, Longitude: 29.9898 -93.3416 to 30.009412,-93.330048 (est) is calculated @ 1.28 miles , 2.07 kilometers (km) , 6785 feet , 2068 meters

      Delete
  8. Is it possible that there was carbon monoxide asphyxiation putting both pilots to sleep? But, if it were to happen that fast, it would be likely that they would have smelled exhaust in time to do something about it. Then there is the possibility of an elevator control malfunction, causing a nose down attitude. So sad for these pilots, probably not due to anything they did wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  9. AGENCY:
    Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), DOT.

    ACTION:
    Notice of proposed rulemaking (NPRM).

    SUMMARY:
    The FAA proposes to adopt a new airworthiness directive (AD) for all Textron Aviation Inc. (Textron) Models 180, 180A, 180B, 180C, 180D, 180E, 180F, 180G, 180H, 180J, 180K, 182, 182A, 182B, 182C, 182D, 185, 185A, 185B, 185C, 185D, 185E, A185E, and A185F airplanes. This proposed AD was prompted by a report of cracks found in the tailcone and horizontal stabilizer attachment structure. This proposed AD would require inspecting the tailcone and horizontal stabilizer for corrosion and cracks and repairing or replacing damaged parts as necessary. The FAA is proposing this AD to address the unsafe condition on these products.

    DATES:
    The FAA must receive comments on this proposed AD by June 29, 2020.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The 182Q N4765N accident aircraft does not have the tailcone design that the AD applies to. AD is for problems that showed up on the tail draggers.

      Models 182 through 182D airplanes have the same tailcone design as Model 185-series tail draggers. Later 182's do not.

      https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/11/02/2020-24046/airworthiness-directives-textron-aviation-inc-airplanes

      Delete
  10. This seems mechanical or structural based on the flight path which, hopefully, NTSB will clear up if so. It seems odd it's damn near nose down like that unless it was human input which, would hate to think that. The Cessna 182Q Skylane II tends to glide well all things considered, even if the engine wasn't rotating as in, it'd not tailover like that.

    ReplyDelete
  11. @ http://kirtlandflightcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/C182-POH.pdf notes that "Prompt lowering of the nose to maintain airspeed and establish a glide attitude is the first response to an engine failure" and a Figure indicating at a 'speed 70 kias, prop windmilling, flaps up, zero wind" the ideal glide distance from 4,000 AGL to ground is 6 miles."

    As noted earlier, “The airplane reached about 4,500 ft above ground level (agl), as the airspeed decreased.”
    and
    "recorded ADS-B data distance From: 4,325 feet @ 29.9898 -93.3416 To: Wreckage and Impact Information Latitude, Longitude: 30.009412,-93.330048 (est) has a Calculated Distance Straight line distance of only 1.28 miles"
    Apparent mechanical failure, or failure in the cabin..

    ReplyDelete
  12. "The crankshaft sheared aft of the propeller flange. Two of the propeller blades remained attached to the propeller hub and one blade was not recovered."


    Was the missing blade buried with the wreckage and not found..... or did the blade fail at 4500 feet and get thrown before the dive? Thrown blade and resulting immediate out of balance could have ripped an engine mount, canted the engine in some way creating horrendous aerodynamics and an unrecoverable dive?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. See March 8, 2021 at 10:18:00 AM EST comment discussion string up thread on search for the missing blade.

      Delete
  13. a practice stall , with a forward C of G ?

    ReplyDelete
  14. or a practice incipient spin, that got the spin stopped , but the nose did not come up, due to forward c of g?

    ReplyDelete
  15. Would like to ask for a line of discussion about the lack of a mayday call, which hasn't been previously discussed in this thread. Also, the known aeronautical capabilities of one of the pilots, a CFI, who was well respected at the sheriff's office as their Chief Pilot do not point to pilot competence issues. This is certainly one of the most mysterious 182 crashes in recent history.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Would not expect a mayday transmission during a rapidly developing problem.

      Simplest accident viewpoint is that the elevator stayed streamlined behind the horizontal stabilizer during the dive. Either the pilots made no control input to the elevator or it was mechanically disconnected or impeded.

      There is a remote possibility that a thru-bolt vibrated out of a connection near the yoke and forward elevator bellcrank, having spun off it's castellated nut due to a omitted cotter pin.

      What source of vibration could suddenly finish shaking loose an unsecured control connection as they recovered from a practice stall? Throwing a blade as they throttled back up would do it. If that happened, NTSB examination of the connection points in the elevator controls for lost fasteners will find one.

      FAA training on proper inspection practices details a disconnected C182 "up" elevator control connection true life incident in this document:

      https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gslac/courses/content/37/561/ffp.htm

      Delete
  16. You made some very astute observations focused on elevator issues, compounded by the possible loss of a blade. An uncontrollable dive in an otherwise intact 182 certainly brings the elevator performance into the picture.

    Thanks for including the link to the FAA's "Dirty Dozen" of human-factor issues related to maintenance practices - good reading for 182 owners.

    ReplyDelete
  17. well the only thing to attempt if it disconnected is nose up elevator trim, if that is working, but if you are pointed straight down, that might not have enough time to work

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sorting out the problem and making a timely decision to get on the trim control would certainly be a challenge in that scenario.

      Delete
  18. Youtube guy Dan Gryder claims to have found the third blade at the crash site.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Take notice how he said it: "I found it and it's still there." (6:43 in the #2 video)

      If he really did find it, a responsible person who wanted resolution for the pilots and their loved ones would have immediately called the local FSDO and made sure it got turned over by positive handoff.

      Leaving the blade there and risking it getting picked up by the next random visitor to the wreck site would be a disservice to solving the mystery. No responsible person aware of the circumstances would leave it.

      Ask yourself: Why leave it there? Answer: He didn't find it. It won't be there when someone does go back to fetch it. He can then use it becoming "lost" to push the "NTSB is at fault for not being on site" canard.

      More controversy for clicks and useful in the relentless vendetta against NTSB. Don't count on him providing a true photo of that blade, dug out of the sand bar.

      The grieving families will suffer his "leaving it" as cruelty.

      Delete
    2. He may have not been able to retrieve it. It may have required tools to get it out of the ground. I’ve known Dan a few years although I haven’t talked to him in awhile but if he said he found it then I’d say he found it. I’d say he just wasn’t able to retrieve from wherever it was.

      Delete
    3. Anyone who cared about the families and somehow detected the blade, would not rest until investigators obtained the blade.

      He should be smart enough to simply ask someone else to report the find to the FSDO if his ongoing vendetta complicates doing so on his own.

      Delete
    4. I am glad he is calling out the NTSB! It's their job to travel to accident sites to determine the cause. They are using COVID as an excuse to be LAZY and not work. More people need to call out their dereliction of duty.

      Delete
    5. I never saw more lawsuits against management at this organization that were justified, but those affected did not care because the money they caused the taxpayers to forfeit did not come out of their pockets.

      Delete
  19. The youtube guy's 3rd dramatic video came out but has no photo or any mention about the missing blade. As expected, he didn't find it, just a lie told for clicks.

    ReplyDelete
  20. I watched all three episodes of Utube guy, and I still dont really know what his theory really was. Googled the N number to find the NTSB report and ended up here, Ive never seen this site before, Ive never commented here, So I appologise if my comment is not welcome.

    I suggested this in comments a couple of other places, and every time I've gotten ripped on about how wrong I was, and I probably am wrong, but I had a gut feeling about this when I first heard of it, two guys in a modern regular nothing special airplane doing minor training, returning to the airport, aircraft was 4,000 AGL then inexplicably nosedives into the ground, severe clear visibility calm winds, no obvious weather or mechanical reason for the crash. Based solely on the description of the situation, sounds to me like they decided to try to do a slow roll and screwed it up.

    If you do it wrong, when you come over the top and are inverted, if you let the nose fall towards the ground in a plane like that you can loose three or four thousand feet really fast and can easily exceed redline. In previous comments I made elsewhere, I was just speculating. When that happens, if you come out of the botched slow roll, you level out traveling in a direction at an angle of about 50 t0 80 degrees from your original course in the direction opposite of the direction of the attempted roll. I try to plot out the ADSB data listed above in my head, and that seems to be how they crashed.

    I propose that they had been doing training for an hour or so in a practice area, were returning to the airport traveling in a straight line for many miles, when they got within eyesight of the airport and were thinking the fun was almost over, for whatever reason, they attempted a slow roll to the left, they had forward CG (close to, at, or beyond limits is not known, but probably somewhere forward), so when they went over the top and were inverted, the nose started to fall to the ground. When in that position in that maneuver, you need to push forward and complete the roll, but when inverted, everything is upside down and backwards, so the natural tendency or the instinct for anybody who has not gotten instruction in that maneuver is to pull back hard which points the plane straight at the ground, ground speed drops towards zero as the vertical speed and airspeed goes off the dials, the rotational inertia of the roll causes the plane to continue to roll as it heads down, and you pull out (or impact) going towards a right angle to the right of the original path if you were attempting to roll to the left.

    Im not saying thats what happened, just a theory and my original gut feeling of what might have happened, but it is a theory that seems consistent with the facts. They took off, flew out somewhere to do a bunch of maneuvers, were flying back some distance, got close to home, decided to try a slow roll, smurfed it, augered it straight into the mud. I think its a possibility that needs to be explored by people who know a whole lot more about it than I do.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @Trimble - No CFI would roll or allow his student to roll a 182.

      Your first paragraph seems to be describing a loop, not a roll. No CFI would loop or allow his student to loop a 182.

      Not surprised that your "gut feeling" was criticized.

      Delete
  21. Just one comment, not trying to be judgmental. A comment was made about the NTSB being derelict in not actually visiting the accident site. There is a long standing agreement between the NTSB and the FAA that the NTSB, because of being short-staffed, has the official authority and do relegate most general aviation accidents solely to the FAA. There is an FAA order (8020-11D) that outlines the entire concept of the hand-off of certain accident investigations. It is a detailed order of 40+ pages. Look it up.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The demonizing of the NTSB over not traveling to this accident included the untruthful claim "I found the missing blade". In the N3RB accident, the tuber wrongly asserted that the pilot murdered a co-pilot.

      Unfortunately, those enthusiastic followers who ignore the tuber's established pattern of false claims and obvious click baiting don't care about defined NTSB/FAA roles or delegation.

      The biggest tell of the whole charade is exploitation of the accident victim's loved ones. The intentional lie about finding the missing blade showed how little regard for their loss the tuber actually has.

      Delete
  22. I just watched Dan Gryder's part III video. He's blaming the crash on the theory that the three-bladed prop at idle created a flat disc effect that stopped air flow to the elevator and recovery from a stall.

    I know about a three-bladed prop having a flat disc effect at low throttle from my experience with giant scale model planes. I had a nearly half-scale Spacewalker that weighed only 25 pounds. It flew great with a two-blade prop. When I switched to a slightly smaller three-bladed prop to get a little more tip clearance, I found that the plane would just stop flying when the throttle was pulled back to idle or near idle. The plane would stall and fall without any elevator input at all. It would recover immediately with added power.

    I won't go so far as to say he's nailed it as to the cause of this crash, but at least he's not off on some crazy idea.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You are misinterpreting your RC observations.

      Aircraft would be falling out of the sly every day if throttling back blanked the elevator.

      The man actually is off on a crazy idea, but nonsense on youtube always finds devoted followers. For example, look up "Free energy device" on youtube and notice how many people believe in perpetual motion.

      Delete
  23. I forgot to mention that the model Spacewalker with the three-blade prop would immediately recover and glide normally if I shut the engine off, too. In what way am I misinterpreting my observations?

    BTW, I'm a low-time private pilot who owned a C172 in the late'90s, and I've also logged about forty hours in a C182. That's why this case caught my attention.

    ReplyDelete
  24. This is the type of crash that likely catches LOTS of self-aware pilots' attention...

    Inre your (Winchman's) observation/question noted in the 1st paragraph, writing as a (never-used-for-income) aerospace-engineering-degreed, ~2600-hr glider-only pilot who also 'messed around w. RC gliders', one 'obvious difference' between RC power planes and full-sized ones is what I'll call 'prop-disc-area/mass ratio' differences, with the RC 'ratio' being considerably higher than that for man-carrying (182) equivalents. I'd expect the model to be MUCH more sensitive to 'prop-disc-effects' than the man-carrying version...which is not to suggest they don't exist for a full-sized C-182. That noted, my betting-bux is on 'something else' being 'the root cause' behind this puzzling crash.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Correct! His 25 pound mass half scale model Spacewalker is just six percent of half the mass of the 800 lb full scale Spacewalker.

      His half scale model Spacewalker needs to weigh 400 lbs in order to replicate prop disc effects faithfully.

      Delete
    2. Well, if the cause is "something else" there is zero chance that we'll find out anything about it through a non-existent investigation by the NTSB or the FAA. These bloated agencies are primarily in the business of keeping their empires intact and in remaining on covid vacation as long as possible. Investigating accidents and making cogent, helpful recommendations is the NTSB's job. NTSB, do your job.

      Delete
    3. Makes no sense to claim "non-existent investigation" when the preliminary report describes verification of control continuity by examination for tensile overload separations and a determination of as-found fuel selector position. Dockets reflect additional in-depth efforts made between initial examination and completion of the investigations.

      The nonsensical "flat disc effect" story is on par with the critic's untrue claim about finding the missing blade from this 182 or the untrue claim that the pilot of N3RB murdered a co-pilot. Don't get taken in by the constant criticism of NTSB and FAA efforts.

      Delete