Friday, October 07, 2022

Cessna 172P Skyhawk, N97883: Fatal accident occurred October 06, 2022 at Newport News/Williamsburg International Airport (KPHF), Virginia

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

The National Transportation Safety Board traveled to the scene of this accident.

Investigator In Charge (IIC): Read, Leah

Additional Participating Entities: 
Jay Venable; Federal Aviation Administration / Flight Standards District Office; Richmond, Virginia
Textron Lycoming; Atlanta, Georgia
Textron Aviation; Lakeland, Florida 


Location: Newport News, Virginia
Accident Number: ERA23FA008
Date and Time: October 6, 2022, 15:07 Local Registration: N97883
Aircraft: Cessna 172
Injuries: 1 Fatal, 2 Serious
Flight Conducted Under: Part 91: General aviation - Instructional

On October 6, 2022, at 1507 eastern daylight time, a Cessna 172, N97883, was substantially damaged when it was involved in an accident at the Newport News/Williamsburg International Airport (PHF), Newport News, Virginia. The flight instructor was fatally injured, and the student pilot and the pilot rated passenger were seriously injured. The airplane was operated as a Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 instructional flight.

A review of airport surveillance video revealed that after the airplane departed runway 20, it entered a steep (nose-high) pitch attitude. The airplane began to turn left while in this nose-high attitude and reached an altitude of about 50-100 ft before it made a descending left-hand turn and impacted terrain west of the runway.

A witness, who was a flight instructor, was taxing south on taxiway alpha when he observed the accident airplane in a “crazy” nose-high pitch attitude (about 30 degrees nose up) on takeoff. The airplane reached a height of about 200 ft above the ground, when the left wing stalled and dropped. The witness thought the instructor of the accident airplane tried to recover from the stall because the airplane’s wings leveled out momentarily before the left wing dropped again, and the airplane hit the ground on its belly. The witness described what he observed as a “power on stall.”

The airplane came to rest in a drainage ditch on a magnetic heading of about 090 degrees. All major components of the airplane were located at the accident site and there was no postimpact fire. Flight control continuity was established for all major flight control surfaces to the cockpit. The flaps were in the fully retracted position, and the elevator trim tab actuator was found in the 5-degree tab up position. 

The airplane wreckage was retained for further examination.

Aircraft and Owner/Operator Information

Aircraft Make: Cessna 
Registration: N97883
Model/Series: 172P 
Aircraft Category: Airplane
Amateur Built:
Operator: 
Operating Certificate(s) Held: Pilot school (141)
Operator Designator Code:

Meteorological Information and Flight Plan

Conditions at Accident Site: VMC 
Condition of Light: Day
Observation Facility, Elevation: PHF,42 ft msl
Observation Time: 14:54 Local
Distance from Accident Site: 0 Nautical Miles
Temperature/Dew Point: 24°C /10°C
Lowest Cloud Condition: Clear
Wind Speed/Gusts, Direction: 7 knots / , 270°
Lowest Ceiling: 
Visibility: 10 miles
Altimeter Setting: 30 inches Hg
Type of Flight Plan Filed: None
Departure Point: Newport News, VA
Destination: Newport News, VA

Wreckage and Impact Information

Crew Injuries: 1 Fatal, 1 Serious 
Aircraft Damage: Substantial
Passenger Injuries: 1 Serious 
Aircraft Fire: None
Ground Injuries: N/A
Aircraft Explosion: None
Total Injuries: 1 Fatal, 2 Serious 
Latitude, Longitude: 37.131889,-76.492972

Those who may have information that might be relevant to the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) investigation may contact them by email witness@ntsb.gov, and any friends and family who want to contact investigators about the accident should email assistance@ntsb.gov. You can also call the NTSB Response Operations Center at 844-373-9922 or 202-314-6290. 





Congratulations, to Hampton University's Viktoria Ljungman. Initial Certified Flight Instructor. -Rick Aviation Inc




NEWPORT NEWS, Virginia (WAVY) – A small plane crashed Thursday afternoon at Newport News-Williamsburg International Airport, killing the flight instructor on board, Virginia State Police confirmed.

The Cessna 172P Skyhawk crashed around 3:05 p.m. Our 10 On Your Side investigative team confirmed it is owned by Rick Aviation, a flight school in Newport News.

In a news release from the Newport News-Williamsburg International Airport, officials say the aircraft crashed into the woods upon take-off.

State Police added that the plane reached an altitude of approximately 100 feet, veered off course and crashed into the embankment adjacent to the runway.

Three people were on board the plane when it crashed. Police say the plane was piloted by a student, 18-year-old Oluwagbohunmi Ayomide Oyebode of Hanover, Maryland. He was taken to a local hospital with serious injuries, then transferred to VCU Hospital in Richmond.

State Police officials say the female instructor, identified as 23-year-old Viktoria Theresie Izabelle Ljungman of Williamsburg, died at the scene. She was a licensed commercial pilot as well as a flight instructor.

10 On Your Side received a statement from her roommate. “Viktoria didn’t have a single bad bone in her body. Not only was she nice, but she was intelligent, beautiful, adventurous, punctual, a risk taker, and radiate(d) positive energy,” said Myana Mabry. “She was truly someone you only meet once. And I will love her until the day after forever.”

A third person, an 18-year-old male, also suffered life-threatening injuries. Both 18-year-olds are students in an aviation class, according to investigators. 10 On Your Side also confirmed with Hampton University they are both students there.

“Out of respect for the students and their families, we have no further comment at this time,” said a spokesperson from the university.

The FAA and the National Transportation Safety Board are now investigating the crash.

Virginia State Police provided an update Friday morning on the investigation and said it revealed that Oyebode attempted to pull the aircraft up at too steep an angle at takeoff. This caused the airplane to stall, which led to the crash.

The official cause of the crash remains under investigation.

252 comments:

  1. The instructor surely would have caught this if it were a gentle pulling back too far. It would have to have been abrupt, which makes me speculate that it could be that seat rail issue that has plagued 172s for a while. If the seat suddenly slides back and the student grabs the yoke, there may not be enough time for the instructor to respond.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Seat Rail issue would be my speculation as well. The instructor may not have time or strength to counter the force.

      Delete
    2. The seat rail issue has been addressed in an AD. I highly doubt a part 121 school, or any A&P doing an annual would sign off an airplane with an open AD.

      Delete
    3. ^^^^ I quit wearing rose colored glasses over 30 years ago. YMMV

      Delete
    4. Also … it’s part 141.

      Delete
    5. Seat rail I can’t see that., get real how long have you been away from flying. Stop speculating

      Delete
    6. Actually, it is a fairly common problem. It is also under the mechanic's discretion… crappy mechanics may not care enough to fix the issue/just poorly look it over. It sounds to me like it was a power-on stall. The abrupt yank of the yoke can cause the plane to stall immediately and propel downward. The Instructor may have been teaching pattern work.

      Delete
    7. Could be the student simply overpowered her, in panic. It happens. The ground comes at you fast in 100 feet.

      Delete
  2. 23 Year Old CFI issues less than 6 months ago (4/20/2022) ...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. what is she doing with an extra passenger along when she's with a student pilot? geesh

      Delete
    2. Puppy mill flight schools.

      Delete
    3. Its called an "Observation Flight". Allows other students the ability to fly with a CFI/Student and observe/learn for free.

      Delete
    4. I get that ,,,but during most observation flights, a student is not at the controls. Why would I, as an observer, want to put my life in the hands of a student pilot? Even with a new CFI beside them?

      Delete
    5. Plenty of flight schools double up on students and do an out and back lesson. Nothing wrong with that. Remember not everyone writing these articles is in the aviation world so anyone in the plane would be considered “a passenger”.
      Don’t be so quick to judge. May this never happen to any of us.

      Delete
    6. It is completely normal for most flight schools to allow friends or family of the student to fly in the back seat while the student and CFI are in the front seat during most lessons (as long as it's not steep turns, unusual attitudes, etc.) This is not unsafe, in fact, far less accidents occur with a student and CFI in the front seat than the usual "take my friends on a flight now I passed my checkride" flight that most newly minted pilots do. It also lets the student experience how the plane handles when it is more heavily loaded than just 2 people because we all know eventually that student is going to try to fly near max gross weight after they get their certificate.

      Delete
    7. It's an unnecessary risk. This isn't a driver's education car ride. You're potentially thousands of feet in the air with a novice at the controls. Flight schools love revenue. That's the only reason this is allowed. A few more of these and a couple of lawsuits and NTSB will be forced to reevaluate the practice.

      Delete
    8. The FAA sets rules for aviation and flight schools, not the NTSB.

      Delete
    9. All these know nothing wanna be Dan Gryders. Stop speculating cause you know nothing. RIP

      Delete
    10. I appreciate the offer ... but, no thanks!
      "wanna be Dan Gryder"

      Delete
    11. I remember doing back-seat observations during my CFI training at a 141 school. That was the only time I witnessed a fully ballooned landing from inside the aircraft and learned a lot from that.

      You should consider that having some “dead weight” in the back seat is actually good for a pilot to learn how much differently the aircraft responds with a more-rearward CG. I’m guessing that the majority here never had anyone in the back seat of their aircraft until after they got their certificate, with no instructor present.

      Delete
    12. To the person who said that it somehow generates more revenue, do you ever stop and listen to what you're saying? How would an extra passenger result in more revenue? I also have done observation flights before and it is very normal practice. We don't know enough about this specific situation to judge the decision making of anyone involved.

      Delete
    13. How is it unnecessary risk? Do you have any actual statistics to back up this theory? A flight with a trained CFI as PIC at the controls is decidedly safer than a flight with newly minted private pilot at the controls. You know that student pilot is going to pile a bunch of friends in the aircraft for a flight as soon as they get their ticket, so why not have them practice with having friends/family in the plane as part of their training and see how they respond when you have a CFI there to evaluate and take over if things go awry. If the first time you fly with friends or family is the day after your checkride, the risk will absolutely be higher.

      Delete
    14. Dan loves the haters he eats them for lunch.

      Delete
    15. By the look of him, that's not all he's been eating!

      Delete
    16. ^^^ True … and he is full of what he has eaten.

      Delete
  3. horrible week for GA.....so many crashes and loss of life in 7 days

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Keeping up the pace with last month. If you count the Part 135 DHC-3 in Mutiny Bay; we had 28 fatal accidents with 48 total fatalities.

      So far this month 7 fatal accidents with 10 total fatalities.

      Delete
    2. Agree....worse than average...

      Delete
  4. ATC cautioned wake turbulence from a fighter jet taking off from an intersecting runway. Wonder if that played a role

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. PHF is my home base and the accident location is not close to runway 25. If they had remained airborne for another minute, THEN they would have crossed the Rwy 25 centerline.

      Delete
  5. One propeller blade is sticking up undamaged. Maybe the engine quit at the worst possible moment. If they hadn't hit that ditch they and maybe the plane would have been unhurt and undamaged. A very sad affair.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If it was in fact LOTOT, then most likely a mishandled abnormality; plenty of other places to put it down in the immediate vicinity.

      Delete
    2. Props are notorious liners in an accident. One blade damaged may mean the other blade stopped rotation. We look for rotational marks.
      All evidence needs to be evaluated. Pretty hard to formulate cause at this point.

      Delete
  6. These stories of CFIs not being ready/able to take control of the aircraft on takeoff and landing are, unfortunately, all too common. Tragically, they end with an unrecoverable stall over the runway....and dead or maimed young people.

    http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/02/cessna-172m-skyhawk-n5185r-accident.html

    http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2022/09/csa-pipersport-n126wk-fatal-accident.html

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Did they stick the fuel sumps for water? That prop was not putting out any power when it struck the bank. The distance they flew would allow for the carb to fill with water and stop cold the engine. Did the CFI over react like so many low time pilots? What was the temperature and dew point at the time of the accident? Carb ice is possible with the high humidity of that area.

      I agree with the "puppy mill" flight school comment. I’ve seen the output of one school in my area, they feed back into the systems bad practices learned from the previous "puppy mill" CFI. It amplifies overtime leading to accidents.

      Delete
    2. It looks like this is yet another crash where the student pulled back on the yoke on takeoff JUST weeks after another fatal crash where the student did the same thing on landing.

      From https://www.wtkr.com/news/flight-community-hurting-after-plane-crash-kills-flight-instructor-injures-hampton-u-students

      "Investigators say 18-year-old Oluwagbohunmi Ayomide Oyebode, of Maryland, was piloting the single-engine plane when it went down.

      State Police, who’s leading the investigation, said during takeoff, the student tried to pull the Cessna up at too steep of an angle, causing the plane to stall mid-air. It then dove and crashed into a ditch.
      "

      I'm guessing the state police interviewed the surviving passengers to obtain that information. Next time I fly with passengers in the front seat, I'm sliding their seat all the way back and duct taping their hands to the seat!

      Delete
    3. Rick Aviation is a stickler for following rules. Proper preflight is a must there.

      Delete
    4. Doubtful that it was water in fuel. According to FlightAware the aircraft had been flown for over an hour about 2 hours prior to the accident flight.

      Delete
    5. Carb ice is usually not as much a problem at full throttle. (Less of a temp drop at the butterfly valve). I can’t say is couldn’t happen as it can but I think that is not as likely as a stall due to too high an angle of attack.

      Delete
  7. Rest in Peace, Viktoria the Pilot. :( Such a sad and tragic loss! https://www.instagram.com/viktoriathepilot/

    ReplyDelete
  8. Wow, those photos are awful! The body of the CFI lying on the ground next to the aircraft covered with a blood stained white sheet but showing the same white shoes she is wearing in the other photo, the blood soaked right seat in the ditch surrounded by foam. It is very hard to look it, pretty surprised those were posted.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Not sure what you are expect looking at fatal accidents photos. At least the body is covered here, plenty where they are not. You should stick to main stream media, where they shield the public from the truth, if this is disturbing to you.

      Delete
    2. There is no body under the sheet. She had already been removed from the scene.

      Delete
    3. Did you ever go to the hospital for something that turned out to be your imagination?

      The body of the CFI lying on the ground next to the aircraft covered with a blood-stained white sheet but showing the same white shoes she is wearing in the other photo, the blood-soaked right seat in the ditch surrounded by foam.

      Delete
    4. Nancy Grace? Is that you?

      Delete
    5. You nailed it. A typical Nancy grace kind of comment, describing her shock; then detailing to the nth degree what shocked her.

      There will be some skilled investigators trying to figure out what happened, in spite of the "expert' analyses given by us.

      Delete
  9. Before folks continue with speculative theory, know that part of rwy 02 is easily visible to several FBO’s with ramp video cameras. The VA State police and FAA were there yesterday (Fri) investigating. The ELT was being tested during my landing/taxi not that it matters now. What I find intriguing is the identity of the rear seat occupant appears to be closely guarded.

    ReplyDelete
  10. I flew out of Ricks getting my license and I know the instructor Viktoria. Their maintenance shop is and has always been top notch. They were a maintenance shop before a flight school, I believe. The instructors are well trained and knowledgeable. Not sure why the abrupt pull back on the yoke. Add the passenger in the back with the added weight and the wake turbulence from the departing military flights on the crossing runways and you might have a condition that is impossible to get out of.

    ReplyDelete
  11. I seriously wonder if they forgot to pull the yoke pin - someone in back - pitch up and stalk

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The Cessna standard "remove before flight" control lock angles down and blocks the magneto-start key switch.

      Delete
    2. Even if they somehow ignored the metal flap blocking the key and did no control check, the Cessna yoke position with the pin left in would not cause a stall like this.

      Delete
    3. Possibly not as you mentioned. I did a little checking today on another 172M and determined that since the yoke pin in those models inserts from the top, one can insert the yoke pin either to the left or right of the yoke and if on the right will [not block] the key switch. Later models like the R and 182T are pinned horizontally with a "u" shaped hook and it is obvious if the placard is not in front of the key switch.

      Delete
  12. ....people have taken off in Cessnas with the gust lock in place. (Though that is not what appears to have happened here.)

    ReplyDelete
  13. Not sure what their source is, but all the news outlets today are stating that the Student pitched up causing the stall. Santa Monica all over again?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It's time for flight schools to start using decent simulators of their training aircraft. The simulators don't have to be airline level D simulators, but they certainly can be realistic enough to help filter out students who are possibly going to exceed allowable angle of attack during takeoff. Let the significantly incompetent students crash the simulator, not a real aircraft.

      Delete
  14. Crashing into a ditch when there is open fields leads to a plane not being controlled by the Flight Instructor....I am starting to believe people raised on computer games are leading to loss of common sense to real life actions and results of those actions..Rinse and repeat accidents....Same going on for increase in traffic deaths with speeding..

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Instead of computer games, kids used to have balsa gliders with wings that adjusted fore and aft. You got an understanding about flight physics from that. Swinging on your home swing and bailing out as high as you could get taught about gravity. Much was lost by retreating indoors.

      https://www.oldwoodtoys.com/images/LittleDipper.jpg

      Delete
    2. Lots of non-pilots here. When a plane stalls, there is no controlling it. Field or ditch, its going to hit whatever is in its trajectory with the controls having little affect (until enough airflow allows it).

      Delete
  15. Young women pilots should look for another way of building time, how many have been killed in the past couple years...both helicopter and planes...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. ...ridiculous comment... there are still far more young male pilots killed.

      Delete
  16. Out of respect for this young flight instructor who lost her life while pursuing her career, please cut out stupid references to gender and youth. Comments like these are insulting to the aviation profession and hurtful to victims’ families. Please!
    RIP

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You missed the point...It's about staying alive....

      Delete
    2. The age and gender of the CFI has no bearing on that. Being a CFI is a risk regardless of who does it. The fact that that is an entry level aviation is something that would make sense to change but there is no money in it so people leave when they have the most experience.

      Delete
    3. Couldn't disagree more with the "age" factor. Experience and steadiness come with age, not the other way around. These early 20-something CFIs have a much higher incidence rate. Find another way to make money when you're 20 years old. Put in your time first. You owe it to your students. Piling up hours quickly in good weather is no substitute for the experience of years.

      Delete
    4. Yes so true, to continue my comment, Who is stronger in a panic situation, a young lady or a man??? I was a young CFI, like everyone else starting out, we are also still learning, a bit nervous of the unknown..Facts are facts.

      Delete
  17. I live under the instrument approach for 25 and learned to fly at PFH and this is the first fatal crash that I can remember in probably 30 years. There must be video of this from the airport equipment or from RICK aviation that will show more useful information. It is interesting that the exposed prop blade is not bent or damaged which raises the question of whether the engine was developing power at the time of the accident. A sudden loss of power from 100 ft and a high angle of attack would likely be impossible to recover from.

    ReplyDelete
  18. prev | next
    § 61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications.

    A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is subject to the following limitations:

    (a) Hours of training. In any 24-consecutive-hour period, a flight instructor may not conduct more than 8 hours of flight training.

    (b) Aircraft ratings. Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, a flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft unless the flight instructor:

    (1) Holds a flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating;

    (2) Holds a pilot certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and

    (3) Meets the requirements of paragraph (e) of this section, if applicable.

    (e) Training in an aircraft that requires a type rating. A flight instructor may not give flight instruction, including instrument training, in an aircraft that requires the pilot in command to hold a type rating unless the flight instructor holds a type rating for that aircraft on his or her pilot certificate.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Relevance? Which one of these are you implying was violated here?

      Delete
  19. Why is anyone blaming the CFI? If that student pilot had the controls and didn’t let go , she wouldn’t have been able to gain control. It doesn’t matter if she was young it sounds like she was very hardworking and driven and got stuck with newbies. Plenty of young kids studying aircraft BEFORE they fly and do a lot better. When you start letting everyone and anyone and you wonder did they study? Did the finish ground school? Did they learn about the aircraft before their first flight. If a student pilot can’t answer a simple question like how temperature affects flight , they have no business on an aircraft unless they are a passenger. It’s really mean to blame this young girl when she passed.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "If that student pilot had the controls and didn’t let go"

      How do you know that this is what happened? Source?

      Delete
    2. State police are calling it a pitch-up based on interviews with the injured. It's reasonable to assume the student overreacted. That's why he said "if". There's your source.

      Delete
    3. What source? It’s speculation learn to read. None of us know what happened.

      Delete

  20. “Virginia State Police provided an update Friday morning on the investigation and said it revealed that Oyebode attempted to pull the aircraft up at too steep an angle at takeoff.”

    Reading comprehension instead of asking for a source. Speculating based on the news article it says the student pilot pulled too steep so if the student pilot did that, then the CFI didn’t. Read read read

    ReplyDelete
  21. The prop blade sticking up is undamaged, stalled engine makes sense. Could easy have been water in the fuel tank, gascolator. Did she show the student how to stick the fuel tanks sumps and gascolator? That area has a great deal of moisture in the air year round. I've worked at that airport, two hangers from Rick's Aviation. In the summer it will steam you.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Could be anything. if it was an engine stall what would make the student make a steep pull up??

      Delete
    2. It is a natural instinct to pull up to get away from the ground when it is rising up to strike the airplane. The concept of flight is not natural to our senses and it takes a lot of training and thought ahead of time to know to unload the wings if it suddenly gets quiet on take off even when close to the ground. There is enough left of this airplane to work out what may have happened along with some survivors to tell what they may have heard and seen.

      Delete
    3. "It is a natural instinct to pull up to get away from the ground when it is rising up to strike the airplane."

      Anyone who thinks this should never fly an airplane or sit by the controls. You never stop flying the airplane. Stalling it out is almost always fatal. Flying the airplane to the crash site has a greater than 50% chance of survival. The first, and immediate, action is always to push, ground or no ground.

      Delete
    4. I have an extended "SAFETY" checklist that I go through when ever I fly with anyone I have never flown with before; regardless if I'm PIC, SIC, or Passenger. In this checklist I ask that exact question. "What is your first control input if you experience LOTOT?" Among many other things...

      I am always curious as to what their SAFETY briefing include in these types accidents...

      Delete
    5. Two things: it is hangar and Rick Aviation.

      Delete
    6. You must be a great CFI. "What is your first control input if you experience LOTOT?"

      This could weed out a lot of students who don’t care to learn but want to fly. Studying comes first. It would hurt a flight schools pocket if they could only retain people who knew the answers to these questions.

      Delete
  22. Her latest IG post said “CFI life” and had videos of low-level flying (is takeoff and/or landing). Hopefully she spent her time instructing actually paying attention to what was going on. I see a ton of “pretty pilots” on IG who love posting pictures of themselves flying and showing how attractive they are. They quite often have a ton of followers. I wonder how seriously many of them take flying.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I work for a major US airline, I personally know and work with several "pretty pilots" just because they are "pretty" that doesn't change their flying abilities. Your post makes inappropriate assumptions, you have no idea what happened in that plane.

      Delete
    2. "Gulfstream Girl" Nadia Marcinko (Orig. Nada Marcinkova) is a good example to reference. Got herself type certified in Gulfstream II and flew Epstein around. The YT video of her pranking a Palm Springs War Wings instructor in a P51 by initially posing as clueless is pure gold:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJNs6L-fbH8

      Delete
    3. Looks have nothing to do with flight skills. You can be pretty and be a great pilot. How insulting to assume good looking people can’t fly well.

      Delete
    4. None of you have addressed what I said. “CFI life” for her apparently meant taking videos with her phone during critical phases of flight. Tell me you guys think that’s reasonable. For so many of these girls it’s just another way to get attention (and that she did - to the tune 17,400 followers). Maybe put the phone down and pay attention while you’re giving instruction? Just a thought.

      Delete
    5. Fair point - then do you believe that her phone recorded the crash?

      The back seat passenger will be able to say whether she had her phone out and wasn't paying attention as the takeoff got underway. Unless she had her phone out and was recording through this accident, her past photography wouldn't be a factor, would it?

      Delete
    6. I'm not the OP, but I agree with him. You guys are likely deliberately misconstruing what he means by "pretty pilot." It is not being just "built well" or "good looking." It is the conscious effort that goes into glamorizing the life, documenting, doing makeup / clothes, instead of concentrating on the mundane and critically important details of flying.

      If a girl showed up with nicely painted nails, that is fine, but she has to understand they might get chipped when you reach into the cowl. We aren't against pretty pilots, but let's be realistic, focusing to a large degree on appearances does take mental energy away from flying. I think having a glamorous instagram is a risk factor for pilots.

      But MAN, she was indeed a pretty pilot... be honest, for better or worse that might be a distraction too for her CFIs' objectivity. Remember that "Lake Little" gal too...

      Delete
    7. There are plenty of ugly old male pilots that also take videos and selfies of themselves while flying (sometimes during critical portions of flight, sometimes when they are illegally not wearing a shoulder harness), but no one seems to give a hoot about them doing so.

      Delete
    8. >There are plenty of ugly old male pilots that also take videos and
      >selfies of themselves while flying (sometimes during critical portions of
      >flight, sometimes when they are illegally not wearing a shoulder
      >harness), but no one seems to give a hoot about them doing so.

      Sorry, that's just not true. Stop your manufactured outrage. Old dudes that film themselves and make glamour-pages will get just as much criticism. Same with young men who do the same thing - I remember a lot of internet criticism when this guy first started posting youtubes and videos all over social media:

      http://www.swaynemartin.com/training/im-officially-a-flight-instructor/

      Delete
    9. "You guys are likely deliberately misconstruing what he means by "pretty pilot." It is not being just "built well" or "good looking." It is the conscious effort that goes into glamorizing the life, documenting, doing makeup / clothes, instead of concentrating on the mundane and critically important details of flying."

      I am the OP, and this is 100% what I meant.

      Delete
    10. “Gulf Stream Girl” post above … aka ‘Global Girl’ … I believe Nadia was indicted in the last year, along with Ghislaine for trafficking Jeff’s young girls

      Delete
    11. Any questions as to whom payed for her flying or what she did for that pay?

      Delete
  23. Replies
    1. “A hole”

      Classy reply. But if you’re taking videos during critical phases of flight when you’re supposed to be giving instruction, that shows a serious lack of judgment.

      Delete
    2. Was she taking pictures or was she using one of those GoPro things. I think those young youtubers that keep recording while flying a distraction. although its helps to see recordings like that to know how to fix problems.

      Delete
    3. “Was she taking pictures or was she using one of those GoPro things.”

      Video with a phone.

      Delete
  24. This aircraft was involved in an accident on 14 June 1992. Source: NTSB Accident Number ATL92LA125

    ReplyDelete
  25. I got all of my ratings through Rick Aviation’s 141 program and can attest to the quality of their courses, instructors and maintenance shop. This school does not cut corners. Viktoria was a very sharp individual, proficient at the controls and had recently graduated HU with honors. I have a full write-up of her commercial checkride and she accomplished everything that was thrown at her. Our DPE is very strict. As to what caused the brisk stall, only the report will tell. Devastating news for everyone that had the pleasure of meeting her.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. What all does their SAFETY briefing include?

      Delete
  26. Flight schools should implement a classroom yoke and stick "strength contest verification fixture" that you can seat the prospective student and CFI in. Use the fixture to verify the CFI's ability to physically override the student's full strength pull to the stops, and keep in mind that adrenaline fueled panic will make the student stronger than during the calm test conditions in the fixture.

    Not being able to win the contest in the fixture would be reason to hand off the student to a CFI who can win, or getting acceptance from the student of "Since you won the pull test, I'm going to bring my hammer along to bash you with in case you panic, okay?".

    But a pull test fixture will never happen, because no school wants to admit that control struggles happen. Could scare off prospective students and spook some starry eyed CFI's that currently have no expectation of being in that circumstance.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Not sure about a hammer; however, maybe a taser. Then again, the time to grab taser, reach over and activate; may not be quick enough to recover the pitch before stall, even if its in your lap.

      Delete
  27. The following track log shows the plane flew for 1 hour and 39 minutes before crashing.
    https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ada4e9&lat=37.019&lon=-76.562&zoom=11.0&showTrace=2022-10-06&leg=1&trackLabels
    This doesn't fit with the story that it was merely a stall upon pulling up too much after take off.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Quite certain you are looking at a previous flight on the same day.

      Delete
    2. That's an idea. But I started at https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ada4e9 and under History I kept clicking Previous Day and found no records of any flight activity until I came across the 6th. And then on the 6th there was only 1 leg, 1 flight.

      Delete
    3. The accident was at 3:15 or so, the previous flight was an hour or so earlier. There is no ADS-B track for the accident flight because they didnt get high enough to see the ground stations at CCV or KSFQ . I am based there and we don't have ADS-B coverage until 300' AGL or more

      Delete
  28. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N97883/history/20221006/1538Z/KPHF/KPHF/tracklog
    this has the flight track log in a table format showing every 16 seconds of the planes direction, speed, elevation, and vertical rate change.

    https://discussions.flightaware.com/t/rate-meaning/61221 says the rate is likely in feet per minute.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Note end time in that FA track log, expressed as 12:56:24 PM EDT. Since EDT is UTC-4, that track log ends at 16:56 Z.

      Notice that the ASIAS accident time is 19:53:00Z. Flightaware did not capture the accident takeoff and on-field crash, three hours later.

      Delete
    2. That's probably it. I wondered where that 19:53:00Z time came from. The FAA.gov url above where it is mentioned makes no mention of the time. A web search for "n97883" "19:53:00Z" got just 2 matches. This page, and an FAA.gov page with an excessively long URL. So I made a short link to it https://tinyurl.com/FAA-incident-notice-for-n97883

      Delete
    3. This needs to be a FAQ, but don't confuse FlightAware or any other ADS-B source with being any sort of accurate reliable flight data log. That is not and never was its purpose. FlightAware applies a fair amount of filtering, smoothing and interpolation to the data it posts, especially when there are missing data points (as frequently happens when aircraft are at low altitude.). ADSBexchange is slightly better, has fewer receivers so there is often less data to work with.

      Delete
  29. ATC AUDIO - N97883 Plane Crash Newport News Virginia (Oct 7, 2022) posted by FSX Aviation
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAxRbz8-eUE

    This is a 2 minute 15 second simulation video with ATC audio.
    However the simulation is not based on the flight track log.
    The simulation follows the story of it being a stall after take off.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Those "FSX Aviation" are just a flight simmers toy run and do an injustice to the flight discussion. Some who watch those even comment about how they saw "in cockpit video" from the real crash. "Simulation" is too generous, those are indeed just storytelling, hollywood style.

      Delete
    2. I pretty much only use those videos as an easy way to get the ATC audio. The flight sim video content pretty much bears zero relation to the actual crash and should just be considered background video filler for the audio track.

      Delete
  30. Sorry for stirring up the idea of a conspiracy regarding the track log not matching the report of the crash. What I had forgotten was the accuracy of the track log is potentially not very good the closer to the ground the aircraft is. And this is because of obstructions between the aircraft's transponder and the receiving units. The ideal would be if the receiving unit was located at the airport or very nearby. But since that's not always the case sometimes there are hills and buildings in the way. It is a common thing for military aircraft landing at Joint Base Andrews south of DC to stall in midair never seeming to land. (this happens on adsbexchange.com)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. To clarify my usage of the word "accuracy", I meant just that the data from low altitude might not get recorded. Not that any of the data that is recorded is inaccurate.

      So for this flight no track log of the flight exists because the altitude was too low for the nearest receivers given their apparent less than ideal placement.

      Delete
  31. Will be good to know if this was the students 1st flight as well as in the Santa Monica crash...Students should not be touching the controls on first flight near the ground...Flight Schools need to create new procedures for first few flights and come up with effective ways to get student to release controls in addition to stern before flight briefings..

    ReplyDelete
  32. So sad. I don't believe it's wise to have passengers during training and I would expect the insurance company to ban that when the flight renewals its policy. I also have concerns over the increase in preventable accidents at pilot factories. There should be more oversite from the FAA.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sorry, but we already have enough government in our aviation lives, thank you very much. Almost all flight schools allow and actually encourage you to bring a friend or family member as a passenger for most phases of flight training. A flight with a trained CFI as PIC at the controls is decidedly safer than a flight with newly minted private pilot at the controls. You know that student pilot is going to pile a bunch of friends in the aircraft for a flight as soon as they get their ticket, so why not have them practice with having friends/family in the plane as part of their training and see how they respond when you have a CFI there to evaluate and take over if things go awry. If the first time you fly with friends or family is the day after your checkride, the risk will absolutely be higher.

      Delete
  33. A student must handle the controls under supervision of the instructor in order to learn how to fly. Their introduction to controlling an airplane must be carefully orchestrated with briefings that cover control functions, attitude reference, and basic safety procedures. During these introduction briefings, an instructor can make an initial assessment of a student’s attitude, cooperation, and aptitude. Some students can handle controls on their first flight. Others may take longer. But they have to perform pilot functions in order to learn.

    Instructors set the rules for this process including positive exchange of controls (the necessity of both knowing who is controlling the aircraft) and a strict rule that a student not oppose an instructor control input at any time during a training flight. Students should be briefed about the increased risk during takeoff/landing due to proximity to the ground and instructors must be prepared to make any control correction immediately during those phases of flight. For me, this involves my hands and feet being “at the controls” even if the student is flying. It is the instructor’s responsibility to continually assess the aircraft remains in a safe condition and to make immediate corrective action if necessary. This involves both verbal instruction and control input. When practicing at altitude, a student gets more leeway to make errors. Close to the ground, that leeway shrinks to near zero. A reward for a flight instructor is when your student is able to recognize the same conditions we are responsible for and accomplishes corrective action without assistance.

    Control inputs for average training aircraft do not require unusual strength. Any person of average strength and dexterity can make proper control inputs. If a student freezes up or panics, an instructor must use a combination of verbal commands and control input to stay safe. Rarely, this may require a physical nudge or other gesture to get their attention. It is unusual that a student does not respond right away. I cannot speak to students with evil intent or abnormal fears except to say those cases are very few. I don’t think it helps to obsess on that possibility.

    A student or instructor’s physical size (primarily height and weight) are important safety considerations because those can adversely affect safety (gross weight, control movement, etc.). As long as they comfortably fit in an airplane and can easily reach controls, they should be fine. However, an instructor must assess this before teaching a student in any airplane. Carrying an observer must be within weight and balance limits and any maneuvers must be within airplane flight manual limitations. Observation of training flights can be very helpful for a school provided they are for a good purpose and are conducted professionally.

    I am not aware of a single issue that would make gender (by itself) a safety issue. Men and women are equally capable of flying. Equally capable of being safe or unsafe. The potential differences in strength between genders does not appear to be relevant in the control of any aircraft I have ever flown. The airplane has no idea of the gender of the pilot handling the controls.

    Instruction is an excellent way for a young pilot to gain experience and prepare for an aviation career. It reinforces the principles obtained in primary instruction. It prepares pilots for the rigorous training disciplines that are part of professional flying. Young instructors frequently have the enthusiasm, sincerity, and fresh knowledge/skill that are ingredients for success in this important process. Charles Lindbergh reportedly observed that “while instructors provide students with primary training, students provide instructors with advanced training”. So true.

    Let’s hope we learn some lessons from this tragedy that may help protect future instructors and students. Regardless of whatever is discovered to be the cause, that would be a memorial to the loss of this young CFI.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "The potential differences in strength between genders does not appear to be relevant in the control of any aircraft"

      Not sensible to say that for a dual control struggle. Ridiculous!

      Delete
    2. "Not sensible to say that for a dual control struggle."

      I agree. As a 100-pound petite CFI, I choose not to teach, not even part-time, for that exact reason. Years ago, during my CFI pursuit, I had discussions with my instructor about the potential of being overpowered by student's death grip. His suggested giving a back-hand punch on student's nose (Ha! Ha!).

      Delete
  34. Let's take your arguement further. If I make your argument gender neutral, all CFI's would have to be assessed and be bigger and stronger than the student. Right? So a 5'10, #175 CFI couldn't train a 6'3" 190# person even if they're both male. And, guess what, muscle strength and mass invariably decrease across all sexes and races as you age... So you'd have to exclude CFI's that are significantly older than their students as well.... Are you really saying we should go down this road? What, require CFI's to hit the gym? Seriously. It may be true that a more petite CFI may be overpowered by a larger, stronger student of any sex. But your answer is not the correct solution.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The gender strength advantage isn't debatable. For your new concern of relative strength in any combination of student and CFI, read the post upthread that suggested that flight schools should implement a classroom yoke and stick "strength contest verification fixture".

      Here is the link to that post:
      http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2022/10/cessna-172p-skyhawk-n97883-fatal.html?showComment=1665367527887#c920404129506939416

      Delete
  35. The whole size/strength issue can be solved easily if CFIs are simply trained to throat punch a student who refuses to let go of the controls and cannot be over powered. A CFI of any gender/strength can easily deliver a shocking blow to the trachea that will cause the offender's autonomous nervous system to let go. Heck, you could even make it part of the pre-flight briefing. "If I say 'my controls', you must immediately release all flight controls. Be warned if you do not do so, I reserve the right to punch you in the throat to save both of our lives." Bob Hoover said he had to punch more than one person in the face to get them to let go of the controls.

    ReplyDelete
  36. I got my CFI in 1985 when I already had 500 hours of charter flying at the age of 23. IMHO You can allow some pupils to hold onto the controls lightly to feel the movements on the very first flight, but not everyone. The instructor needs to assess the pupil. I gave my daughter some flying lessons when she was just 11 and on her first flight she was able to fly straight and level unassisted. Mainly because I first taught her at home on X-Plane. I will probably continue with her flying lessons when she completes university. During my time as an instructor, I never had any pupil trying to yank the control column on takeoff although I have heard of a pupil freezing on the controls during flight from a fellow instructor and apparently an elbow in the ribs did the trick. I was made aware of the C172 seat problem from the first time I got into a 172 and most if not all 172s were subsequently fitted with a latch on the seat rail. There is a remote possibility that this pupil's seat rolled back which I'm sure the investigators will find out if it was the cause (if I am not mistaken this is a 1984 model). A startling fact is the times I've had to overpower another pilot have been in airline flying, both as captain and as first officer.

    ReplyDelete
  37. any official findings yet from the NTSB? or perhaps an official VSP report?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. NTSB will provide an update sometime in 2024 per their usual schedule...

      Delete
  38. what they need to do is halt all 141 operations. mandate at least a year of mechanic school for the type rating you seek, and another year and some change just for sim-time. they need to beef up the ground school, give em a four year degree at the end, then and only then allow students to fly.

    its not like getting your cdl, which i have. i honestly could feel the gaps in knowledge during my 141 training and that translates to danger. gaps in my teaching and also gaps in the CFI's i worked with.

    its babies teaching babies out there. 250 hrs and a piece of paper doesnt mean you are skilled, or know the needed knowledge to handle real world situations effectively and quickly. i quit any advance into the field bc of such feeling.

    imo the faa is too weak. but GA incidents will only rise. how many more needless accidents will happen until we as an industry take a heard look at the training aspects, not just pilot incompetency(which stem from spotty training!!). we arent approaching the act of flying with enough respect.

    i pray for those involved.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Total hours are completely irrelevant. Anyone with half a brain can fly an airplane, that is not the hard part. The real question is are you prepared to deal with all the abnormal situations you can get into. If you fly in perfect conditions for 10,000 hours and never study/learn about all the abnormal circumstances, you are just as good as a 1 hour pilot.

      What makes a good pilot, is someone who spends the time on the ground researching and learning how to deal with all the abnormal situations. Plenty of things you can not practice, like ditching, but can learn about and prepare for on the ground. Just one example of thousands...

      Delete
    2. Thank you!!! It’s about learning. Why does the CFI or flight school get blamed for it all? Why don’t students study and learn. Everyone I know the flew studied months years about what can go wrong what to do, the type of aircraft they use. The new kids want info handed to them in minutes and that’s not how life works. Studying is necessary

      Delete
    3. To the comment that called the FAA weak. You’re ignorant and uneducated. They have done the best to improve aviation. If you studied you would know general aviation flight for less regulation. This is what I mean when I say there are a lot of people who do not research. Atleast the FAA follows rules. Stop blaming the FAA for what probably was inexperience of a student pilot

      Delete
    4. You have some nerve to blame the FAA who isn’t at fault. Read FAA chapter 5 TAKE OFF and LANDINGS

      “A student pilot does not normally have a full appreciation of the variations of control pressures with the speed of the airplane. The student may tend to move the controls through wide ranges seeking the pressures that are familiar and expected and, as a consequence, overcontrol the airplane.“

      The FAA already wrote about this plenty of timessssssssssssssssssssssss

      Delete
  39. I don't believe the issue lies with this competent instructor. It is more due to [all flying school] providing a lack of briefing for new prospective pilots/students on certain dangers they may not be aware of, such as what causes a stall and over-rotation of the yoke at take-off, etc. These things are quite obvious to pilots but may be totally alien to newcomers as - the physics isn't understood or yet been encountered (in a controlled way). These issues should be concisely and clearly communicated (repetitively) to beginners and non-pilot passengers who may be offered a feel of the controls in an experience flight.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I can’t speak for every flight school or instructor but I think the concerns that students or potential students might cause a training airplane to lose control are over blown. It’s possible and may have occurred in this accident and the one in Santa Monica, but I do not believe its necessary to suggest massive changes in flight training. Believe me, every CFI and school I know takes safety very seriously and introduces new and potential aviators with appropriate care.

      I’m waiting for credible information from a proper investigation before making conclusions. Meanwhile hoping the two students/passenger recover and sending condolences to the family and loved ones of the instructor.

      Delete
    2. Flight schools know that short attention spans of modern youth = don't bore me with useless details. Minimal delay in seating them in the aircraft for the discovery flight is the key to keeping the fish on the line and not losing the new customer's business.

      The likelihood that a student will move controls to the limit follows the "tide pod challenge" model and unfortunately this type of accident will become routine and continue to occur as a steady pattern going forward.

      Delete
    3. That information is 100% on the instructor to convey, as is the decision to let a student (or anybody for that matter) to take the controls. She was PIC. End of story.

      Delete
    4. Isn't this the same type of situation that occurred a few weeks ago that has had everyone so upset? A young person dies unnecessarily (could have been avoided). I say again, students on a Discovery flight should NOT touch the controls or be put in the pilot's seat. Just enjoy the view and make sure that you are not someone who panics.

      CSA PiperSport, N126WK: Fatal accident occurred September 08, 2022 at Santa Monica Airport.

      Delete
  40. A confession here. Once a relatively new PPT at somewhere around 85 hours total time I used to get quite a thrill of doing short field high performance takeoffs in the 172P. In fact it became my standard takeoff habit because I wanted to stay proficient with it.

    Well that was all fine and good until one day I pushed it too far and the right wing dropped in the rotation from the runway about 30 feet into the air. Fortunately I managed to catch it quickly and had enough upward momentum to pitch down and not proceed into loss of control.

    I was by myself and did not have any extra weight in the right or rear seat to contend with. I did not remember hearing the acoustic stall horn.

    I continued the climbout and then realized how foolishly close to the edge of getting smashed I took matters. Thinking further I better realized that a stall is not a function of airspeed (as I had plenty, about 66 kts, but pitch angle as I had pitched up too quickly with respect to the relative wind.

    Nowadays I avoid the snap pitch up and do this more gradually.


    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It is approximately 16 degrees angle of attack (that is the angle of the wing to the relative airflow)

      Delete
    2. "I realized that a stall is not a function of airspeed (as I had plenty, about 66 kts, but pitch angle"

      Um, a stall is neither a function of airspeed NOR pitch angle, but solely angle of attack. A wing can stall at any airspeed or pitch attitude if the critical angle of attack is exceeded - this is a basic fact that is drilled into every pilot throughout training. I'm shocked that anyone would be allowed to solo, let alone pass their checkride and not know this simple yet critical fact.

      Delete
  41. Biden is forgiving part of college debt .

    This female flight instructor was from Sweden on a free full college scholarship .

    Were her African male students on a free college scholarship too?

    Who pays for foreigners to get free college scholarships ?

    How can US citizens get a free college scholarship?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sure, be outraged over people getting some free scholarships to better themselves and have a positive impact on society, but definitely do not question the hundreds of millions of your tax dollars that we give away to corporations in the form of subsidies and tax breaks that only serve to enrichen shareholders, or even better the billions in foreign financial aid we give away to other countries, much of it ended up lining the pockets of corrupt politicians and their cronies. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

      Delete
  42. Why are US Colleges are giving free scholarships to foreigners ?

    Is scholarship based on race and/or gender ?

    Where does college gets its money ?

    Does US or State Gov give college subsidies?

    College web site says it’s a “private” university started after civil war and reconstruction to educate former slaves .

    Is student body and staff primarily comprised of minorities who receive Gov funding ?

    Through out history of aviation, Flight students proved motivation by having skin in the game like washing planes or mowing airport grass in exchange for flight time, not free flight time paid by Gov..

    Did the 18 yr old students from Africa have any experience using motorized equipment ?

    Throwing 18 year old students with no mechanical experience driving cars or tractors into a plane is recipe for disaster .

    Does flight school or college have a computer simulator to teach students how to use flight controls ?

    My nephew had no flight experience when he joined marine corp aviation .

    The marine corps made new students practice on simple and cheap computer based flight simulator progress before getting in real plane .
    Seems like college has learned there is a pilot shortage and United Airlines has a goal to hire 50 % of its new pilots from minority race and gender .

    Someone at the college needs to buy a Red Bird type motion simulator and make sure every student has several hours in simulator before taking first flight in a plane .

    But flight instructors can’t build 1500 hours in a simulator and flight school needs planes in the air to make rental income .

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Nice try, cupcake, but the flight school, Rick Aviation, is a private for-profit company that is not tax payer funded. Everyone taking lessons there is paying for them and the school abides by the same part 141 standard as every other school. You can post the same crap five different ways on the comment board, but it still won't make it true.

      Delete
  43. Why are US Colleges are giving free scholarships to foreigners ?

    Is scholarship based on race and/or gender ?

    Where does college gets its money ?

    Does US or State Gov give college subsidies?

    College web site says it’s a “private” university started after civil war and reconstruction to educate former slaves .

    Is student body and staff primarily comprised of minorities who receive Gov funding ?

    Through out history of aviation, Flight students proved motivation by having skin in the game like washing planes or mowing airport grass in exchange for flight time, not free flight time paid by Gov..

    Did the 18 yr old students from Africa have any experience using motorized equipment ?

    Throwing 18 year old students with no mechanical experience driving cars or tractors into a plane is recipe for disaster .

    Does flight school or college have a computer simulator to teach students how to use flight controls ?

    My nephew had no flight experience when he joined marine corp aviation .

    The marine corps made new students practice on simple and cheap computer based flight simulator progress before getting in real plane .
    Seems like college has learned there is a pilot shortage and United Airlines has a goal to hire 50 % of its new pilots from minority race and gender .

    Someone at the college needs to buy a Red Bird type motion simulator and make sure every student has several hours in simulator before taking first flight in a plane .

    But flight instructors can’t build 1500 hours in a simulator and flight school needs planes in the air to make rental income .

    ReplyDelete
  44. Hampton University is a private, historically Black, research university in Hampton, Virginia. Founded in 1868 as Hampton Agricultural and Industrial School, it was established by Black and White leaders of the American Missionary Association after the American Civil War to provide education to freedmen. Wikipedia

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This student's last mode of transportation was driving an ox cart. You think he's gonna know what to do in an airplane?

      Delete
    2. Oh my God, that is hilarious!!

      Delete
    3. Racist idiots. Whatever our colour, our common ancestors originated from Africa, unless you believe in humans walking side-by-side with dinosaurs and a 4,000 year earth!

      Delete
    4. You can thank Biden. Democrats are trying to destroy the US.
      "Racist idiots."

      Delete
    5. "colour" - Brits, Australians, Canadians, and Africans spell it "colour".
      "Color" is the preferred spelling in the United States. Just so we know who we are dealing with.

      Delete
  45. For only $89,000 the college may could have avoided the 172 crash by making new flight students fly several hours in a Red Bird type motion flight simulator .

    Simulators.redbirdflight.com

    Wonder if lawyers for victims will subpoena college staff to ask why the college does not own or require use of flight simulator before flying in a plane .


    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. MS Flight Simulator or FlightGear are more cost-effective and just as useful in grasping basic and advanced concepts. Though a proper briefing on the dangers of stall/over-rotation is the most important aspect.

      Delete
  46. "Karl Marx Airlines" formerly know as United Airlines

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Oh you poor thing … did they send you home for a bit when you refused to get vaccinated for Covid? You are probably one of the guys that makes a one day trip seem like a six day. Over 29 years at UAL and loved it.

      Delete
  47. Amen brother ! Uh , Er …. comrade

    ReplyDelete
  48. Vote for me ! I’ll give you free college , free airline pilot job training too !

    ReplyDelete
  49. For those posters that like to wrap their lips around the FAA private parts, saying that the NTSB/FAA is so wonderful protecting all of us from the dangers presented in GA, I would suggest you look into the fact that in the last 3400 deadly GA accidents the NTSB has made only 4 recommendations to improve aviation safety and all 4 of those recommendation where on the Kobe Bryant helicopter crash.

    Hummm.

    When ever possible the NTSB/FAA and investigation teams, of which are from the major manufactures of the aircraft/engine/components conduct the investigation, will determine “Pilot Error” as the major contributing factor in crashes. They stop at the hanger door, never digging into maintenance, never taking disciplinary action against mechanics. I can tell you from experience that many A&P/IA are not good mechanics.

    Good old Karl must be smiling down on this mess, was it Karl that told United Airlines “Have them roll up their sleeves”, and the FAA went ahead and let them inject unknown / untested chemicals into their bodies.

    Wait, just wait, many more terrible accidents are on the way. Comrades.

    ***** PS Pretty girls make the poison go down smoothly.*****

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Aside from the time required for Homendy to renew her Moped License, she is starstruck (corny as hell) and that's why she jumped on Kobe Bryant, so her name could be attached to a celebrity. That makes her a very sad human indeed.

      Delete
    2. There is only one tired old youtuber that talks about Homendy renewing her moped license. Either you are him or more likely you are one of his "starstruck" fangirls, in which case you should try coming up with your own lines instead of parrotting his.

      Delete
    3. Why the animosity for FAA? Look back to when the GA committee requested less regulation genius. Do you need me to link you the info smarty pants? You can’t keep blaming the FAA for everything smarty pants.

      Delete
  50. "Ox Cart" = Ha! Ha! Thanks, I needed a good laugh!

    ReplyDelete
  51. Uncle Karl in conjunction with the FAA have wrenched havoc on airline pilot/staff personnel.

    Now the rebuilding phase of the new aviation paradigm. It will be stocked from children raised by “Helicopter Parents”, hovering down on them a rotor wash of feel good, Johnny can’t do nothing wrong attitudes, cell phone toting, shelf absorbed sub-humans from gawd knows where…… all treated to free education and flying lessons.

    None of them will master “slow flight maneuvers , stall and spin recovery. None of them will every practice real engine out “dead stick” landings. Soon they will graduate to Airbus aircraft and be told to “never fly the airplane WITHOUT the autopilot. Time after time this plays out in the airline industry with absolutely terrible consequences. These cell phone pilots cannot recognize a stall. They react by pulling back on the control yoke/side stick. If you don’t believe me just take a sample of airline accidents over the last 20 years. You can watch airline accident shows on YT like “Mayday”. It is a reacquiring theme that the NTSB and FAA continue to ignore.

    Basic flight train is to blame. Puppy mill feed back into the training CFI’s. A 250 hr. CFI trains another 250 hr. CFI …...Some training aircraft are not certified for spins adding to the problem, and many CFI are scared to spin anyway. BOO

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. One of the accidents you refer to is Air France … how is the FAA to blame on that one?
      As far as the Continental Express flight … yes he was a bad apple and probably would have been better off selling Real Estate.

      Delete
  52. Interesting analysis. Completely wrong, but there was an attempt to engage and at least were moving in a direction.

    There are thousands of younger folks out there every day successfully performing slow flight, stall recovery, etc. A handful of crashes involving young people makes for an easy sounding board for the politically-triggered (ignoring those by every other demographic and sounding a lot like the uninformed media often decried), but as with everything else, life will go on with or without you, and there will be challenge and success, just like it’s always been.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Look at the number of stall related accident in the airline industry before you leave this subject. Yes, many learning pilots both young and old touch on slow flight, but do they practice slow flight to the extent that it becomes an automatic response to push the stick forward? The answer is NO, the rising accident record proves this fact. How many dead stick landing have you made in your life time. I trained in gliders in the Boy Scouts for my first rating. Every landing is a dead stick landing. The Airforce once required glider/sailplane train for it's cadets. Gliders/sailplanes require expert slow flight skills. Every landing has the potential to be an "off field" landing in your mind. It takes this sort of ingrained train to prepare the pilot to react without thinking to a stall.

    ReplyDelete
  54. If you look at FlightAware tracking, it does not support the narrative by the media. It appears that the plane started to fall from about 500 ft and more than 300 fps. A fall from 100 feet would not account for the damage in the pictures.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Video of the doomed flight.
      https://www.wtkr.com/news/new-video-shows-cessna-plane-taking-off-crashing-at-newport-news-williamsburg-international-airport

      Delete
    2. Too bad the video looks like it was shot on an ancient flip phone with 320 pixel resolution. But from what you can see, it does look like a too steep pull up, however after the peak, the descent angle doesn't look as steep as you'd expect from a stall (there are lots of stall videos out there to compare it with) but rather looks like after the speak, someone pushed the nose down too aggressively as an overreaction to the stall and drove it straight into the ground. Yes, if you stall, you need to aggressively push the nose down, but don't forget to pull that nose up before you hit the ground because you can over do it!

      Delete
    3. What? It absolutely looks like a stall. It may not have developed fully to the break, but that’s a stall and they ran out of room on the recovery.

      Delete
    4. Response to Wednesday, October 12, 2022 at 7:17:00 PM EDT:
      You cannot "pull that nose" until the aircraft is unstalled.

      Response to Wednesday, October 12, 2022 at 7:51:00 PM EDT:
      I agree that "they ran out of room on the recovery."
      And I think that the CFI might have pushed the nose down and leveled the wings with the rudder; but she did not have enough altitude recover.

      Delete
  55. "Oyebode attempted to pull the aircraft up at too steep an angle at takeoff. This caused the airplane to stall, which led to the crash"

    What ever happened to cause the student to do this during takeoff, there would have been no time for recovery at a low altitude.

    ReplyDelete
  56. I disagree with the assessment. Here's what I believe happened, but we have to wait for the report from the NTSB. 1) Three souls were onboard which would mean the AOA would be exceeded at higher speeds due to the load on the wings. 2) Normal rotation at the 1/3 (1000ft of runway the active - RWY 20) 3) Student Pilot pulls on the yoke to rotate as Vy is achieved 3) the 18 YO male student experiences Chair Rail failure and slides back (see timeline 12 sec) as noted by the excessive steep nose high attitude. 4) due to exceeding the AoA the plane (now at 200ft AGL) plummets to the ground 5) A noticed Left yawing motion is observed due to the high power the engine is delivering due to take off configuration (i.e. full throttle) and Left turning tendencies namely P factor and Torque. 6) Auger in 7) 1 Fatality and 2 Severe injuries. This is only speculation.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Not to dismiss your theory, but how common are chair rail fatalities in GA? I've been following KR for several years and to my recollection have not seen a confirmed one.

      Delete
    2. Where in the picture does it show the student pilots seat pulled back???

      Delete
  57. I was not expecting my oct 9 comment to be taken as fact and put all over youtube. I only said based on the news report about the steep angle of attack, that maybe that student pilot pulled yoke way back and the CFI would have had no ability to recover. Y'all took my words as facts and that's upsetting as I am only offering ideas. I am not a pilot I only study as a nerd. I can't afford to fly and I don't get free hand outs so I just learn about aircraft for fun. A great student pilot would have checked their seat preflight. You check your seat move it back and forth and make sure it isn't loose. Again this is why I do not blame the CFI because anyone who studies the FAA materials would know to Becareful especially on controls. There is this idea that the seat pulled back, but go to the picture and you see the left seat isn't pulled back. There is an idea that wake turbulence from the fighter jet caused the student to make a steep angle of attack, but that doesn't make sense because the student never got far and high enough to encounter the turbulence. Now there's a chance it was mechanical failure and the NTSB are the professionals they will figure out probable cause. For anyone insulting minorities and women, I am a minority and I am a woman and I love aircraft just as much as many of you. It's sad to hear how many of you look down on us when we can offer ideas too. The only thing I question after hearing the audio was the cfi corresponding with ATC when the student pilot should have been speaking to the tower for permission to take off NOT the CFI. I really wonder how prepared this student was and it is up to every student pilot to study hard and learn aviation language to be able to speak with ATC.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. From the video maybe the CFI probably put forward yoke which cause aircraft nose down to try to correct the student pilot but didn’t have enough time to recover.

      Delete
    2. In response to your last comment....I'm a CFI at a busy towered airfield. Every student is different. I have many students who have amazing stick and rudder skills but are nervous to talk to tower. This is pretty common. Sometimes it may take them several lessons before they feel confident enough to get on the radio. I wouldn't question at all why the CFI was talking to tower.

      Delete
    3. A bizarre "stream of consciousness" reply. How is it that someone who has had no formal training or experience is so opinionated about possible causes of the crash? Bizarre.

      Delete
    4. That’s why it’s an opinion

      Delete
    5. Not really bizarre. Plenty of aviation enthusiasts who learn about aircraft. Some of you were putting down women and Africans and that was racist and bizarre

      Delete
  58. Can someone inform the media the the engine did not stall, the wings stalled. Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. We've been over this more than a thousand times. Either volunteer your time educating the media or ignore it and move on.

      Delete
  59. To: AnonymousThursday, October 13, 2022 at 6:41:00 AM EDT;
    First my credentials: I'm not with the FAA nor the NTSB, however I have over 500 hours flying time I hold a Commercial certificate with Instrument rating. That said everything I discuss is purely speculative. However it is based on my flight time in the cockpit with many single and multi-engine planes. I believe it was a chair rail was the issue, however the FAA will come out and blame the CFI as she was the PIC on this flight. That's a fact, not fiction, nor speculation. Irrespective of the cause, the PIC is ALWAYS responsible for all aspects of the flight including the airframe, engine, electronics, checking the weather, the airport environment, etc. Now to your query of why the CFI and not the 18 YO student made the call up to the Tower? That's easy. In very low time pilots, especially students, they don't know the phraseology and are reluctant to speak over the comm's. It's usually the CFI, that is until after the students initial Solo flight. I suggest the char rail as the culprit for two reasons, 1) The agressiveness of the pitch angle. The video clearly (at least grainy) shows Vy which is correct(Speed of greatest rate of climb) based one the POH (Pilot Operating Handbook). Then one second later the Pitch is now well above the stall which is the loss of laminar flow of air across the wings, couple that with the weight in the plane (three rather than two) and you have a higher than normal stall speed based on weight. I hope that makes sense. Again only my speculation, but what I do firmly believe is the FAA/NTSB report will say it was the fault of the PIC, as this is common in those reports.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks for answering. It is all speculation. We won’t know the real answers until the reports.

      Delete
    2. Totally agree, as I stated it's only based on my experience, the picture of the airframe from the nose, and the video. But I'm not on the scene. If it is the chair rail it will be easy to detect from the crash site. until then ... but you'll see, they'll blame the CFI who was the PIC of the flight.

      Delete
    3. In the era16fa141 report in 2018 wrote CFI did not checking their seat as the probablE clause. I’m happy to read your expertise as some repliers are just insulting. Other reply said they are pilots who never check their seats

      Delete
  60. and BTW, I've spent countless hours in a plane getting my Private, Instrument, then Commercial certificate and NEVER once has the CFI/I EVER checked my seat. EVER

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Just curious why not check your seat before flight. Being through never hurts it takes one second to check your seat.

      Delete
    2. From AOPA
      Check the seats and seat belts for proper operation. You and your CFI never checking the seats sounds like a you thing.

      Delete
  61. I NEVER said I didn't check the seat. I said my Instructor NEVER checked the seat.

    ReplyDelete
  62. let me revise, my instructors (I've had ten including DPE's) over my flight career never checked MY seat. That was MY responsibility and they assumed I did it. Just as they never did a walk around before the flight (e.g. dumping the fuel, etc.) before the flight and only asked that I did it. This includes Chief Instructors and one who was a ATC with the FAA with TRACON

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ok for a second I thought you were admitting to ignoring preflight. It is the student pilot and private pilot that should check their own seat. I guess you mistyped you’re other statement.

      Delete
    2. You wrote CFI/I I bring you. Glad you clarified

      Delete