Tuesday, May 07, 2019

Bombardier CL601 Challenger, N601VH: Fatal accident occurred May 05, 2019 in Coahuila, Mexico

NTSB Identification: CEN19WA137 
14 CFR Part 129: Foreign
Accident occurred Sunday, May 05, 2019 in COAHUILA, Mexico
Aircraft: Canadair CL 600 2B16, registration: N601VH
Injuries: 14 Fatal.

The foreign authority was the source of this information.

On May 5, 2019, a Challenger Ltd CL-600-2B16 airplane, N601VH, impacted terrain near Coahuila, Mexico. The two pilots and fourteen passengers were fatally injured, and the airplane was substantially damaged. 

This investigation is under the jurisdiction and control of the Mexican investigation authorities. Any further information may be obtained from:

Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGAC)
Blvd. Adolfo López Mateos 1990, Piso 4
Col. Los Alpes Tlacopac, Del. Álvaro Obregón
Codigo Postal 01010, Mexico
Telephone: (52) 55 5723-9400, extension 18548 / 18545
E-mail: cidaiac@sct.gob.mx, jconstan@sct.gob.mx

This report is for informational purposes only and contains only information released by, or obtained from, the Mexican investigation authorities.

Business jet enroute from Las Vegas, Nevada, crashed under unknown circumstances.

Date: 05-MAY-19

Time: 21:00:00Z
Regis#: N/A
Aircraft Make: BOMBARDIER
Aircraft Model: CH601
Event Type: ACCIDENT
Highest Injury: FATAL
Aircraft Missing: No
Flight Phase: UNKNOWN (UNK)

Crew Members:
Juan José Aguilar Talavera
Luis Ovid González Flores
Adriana Monserrath Mejia Sanchez

Martha Isabel Garcia Lagunes
Gary Amauri Vela Garcia
Manuel Alejandro Sepúlveda González
Frida Alexandrina Reyes Luna
Monica Leticia Salinas Trevino
Ramón Amauri Vela
Jade Paola Reyes Luna
Luis Octavio Reyes Dominguez
Loyda Liliana Luna larrosa
Guillermo Octavio Reyes Luna

Captain Juan José Aguilar Talavera 

Adriana Monserrat Mejia Sanchez

Luis Ovidio Gonzalez Flores

Luis Ovidio Gonzalez Flores

Luis Ovidio Gonzalez Flores

Captain Juan José Aguilar and Luis Ovidio Gonzalez Flores


  1. It came down in one piece and in one spot. Looks like it had nearly no forward motion at impact.

  2. Flat Spin. But what caused it? Aft CG? Perhaps coupled with severe turb? Exceeding critical Mach? Unrecoverable flat spin from 370? Wow!
    Just ideas folks, Just ideas. Rest in Peace.

  3. How about a stall while trying to climb to FL410? Look at the data and the large reduction in airspeed. Stall followed by some sort of unrecoverable spin perhaps. I’d question the attempt to climb that high in that particular aircraft given how loaded they were.

  4. Looks like the classic t tail deep stall, test challenger crashed I believe cause of that, to heavy trying to top wx,

  5. That had to heenb horrifying to those poor passengers!

  6. Does look like he was trying to top the weather.
    Slow climber from 370 to 410 indicates he was probably nearing the edge of the envelope ... Normal for most nearing the limits
    Last two hits on verticle speed showed significant increase with little reduction in ground speed suggest weather helped a possible upset
    Surprised there are no returns on the descent

    RIP to all

  7. Something is wrong here. The data doesn't make sense.
    07:37:07 PM 28.4036 -103.3342 ↘ 131° 425 489 40,300 1,250 Climbing FlightAware ADS-B (CUU / MMCU)
    07:37:25 PM 28.3814 -103.3067 ↘ 136° 379 436 40,925 2,083 Climbing FlightAware ADS-B (PDS / MMPG)

    The data just magically 'stops' at 40,925 feet? Even in a deep stall/flat spin there should have been at least one more ping of data from the aircraft on the way down unless there was an electrical failure or some other catastrophe!


    'Local reports say there was a strong storm in the area at the time of the crash.'


    Hopefully the flight recorder data will hold some real answers...

  8. Maybe another case of "the plane that flew too high". Reminds me of that West Caribbean crash. A high altitude stall all the way to the ground.

  9. I did notice the passenger / crew manifest photo only shows a single pilot on board . Maybe this is an oversight or a very bad decision. Loaded plane , bad weather , critical altitude..... must have been terrifying trip down on their final minutes of life . RIP .

  10. Anonymous; no oversight or bad decision. Just have to read the form thoroughly to see the copilot listed in the lower block.

  11. You are correct DWN .... pilot was listed above on form and copilot below ...
    The report was updated with names of passengers and crew along with a few more photos this afternoon .

  12. What anon said above about 'classic t tail deep stall'...
    wow. I googled that and what I found was unreal data about these things having this problem! Even traumahawks!

    "Deep stalls can be insidious, however. Until the age of voice and flight recorders that preserved the last few hours of every commercial flight, accident investigators were sometimes puzzled by crashes that seemed almost inexplicable. Airplanes would sometimes mush into the ground at high descent rates but with wings level and nose 20 to 30 degrees above the horizon. Most were in military or airline jets, usually fatal to all aboard, so there were no survivors left to describe what led up to the crash."

    That's some scary stuff right there...

  13. Rare but they do happen, flat spins from high altitude. While an instructor pilot in the military, I experienced two flat spins that got completely out of hand. One resulted in ejection, the other recovered at 5000 feet after falling from FL 32.. Only one recovery method, doesn’t matter if a conventional or T tail. Power to the stops, opposite rudder to the spin, flight controls to the stops forward. It either works or it doesn’t. Being in a business jet makes ejection a non issue. RIP ..

    1. Could also been combined with a sudden flame out...?

    2. Many years ago, a friend's radio-controlled model plane would enter a flat after 3 or 4 rotations of a normal spin, with minor damage. The only way we could get it to recover was in the way you mention - full power and opposite rudder and ailerons. It would rotate for at least 5 or 6 more times, with a very violent recovery, much like a snap roll.

  14. Thanks Leo for the answer, that experience must've been horrifying as well....
    and thank you for your service.

  15. Looks like the first officer was fully loaded with epaulets, probably dual rated.

    1. I think they took that pic from his personal and private wall, probably a joke he was doing at flight school or something

  16. ^^^^^ Yeah ... I got a chuckle out of that. No doubt Luis had a good sense of humor.
    I think I'm going to do that on my next trip ... If asked I will tell them I trying for "Captain of the Year"

  17. The horizontal stabilizer appears to be trimmed in nearly a full nose up position, given the load on the aircraft, operation near its service ceiling and reported rate of climb suggests entry into the top of a thunderstorm (climb rates of 2000+ fpm are impossible for this model at these altitudes), entry into a cell or trying to climb at 2000 FPM would quickly lead to drastic reduction in indicated airspeed an high altitude stall. Entry into a T-storm could also lead to dual engine flameout, subsequent aerodynamic stall, the only source of electrics or hydraulics would be reduced to the Air Driven Generator but this wouldn’t function if the indicated airspeed were low enough to stall meaning no electrics, hydraulics or pressurization meaning no flight controls since the Challenger is strictly hydraulic powered flight controls. A deep stall from altitude would not be recoverable unless the crew went on O2 and was able to start the APU out of 20,000 feet. Lots of ifs there...just my humble opinion.

    1. I don't think a thunderstorm caused this. The captain was new to the airplane, the copilot was warming the chair, and look like a typical show off, we'll see in the vdr and fdr.

  18. In the early 80's I was beginning my flight training and read an article about a 727 I believe eastern airlines if I recall they were within a 1000ft of cruise altitude when the aircraft entered a flat spin. The crew tried every course of action to recover to no avail. The captain as a last ditch effort dropped the gear and amazingly recovered I believe at about 5000ft.

  19. 2000fpm climbs are not really possible in the 601 at those altitudes without dangerous speed bleed off, 2nd the lose of everything the cabin altitude would only go to 13,500, the only possible long shot is to firewall one engine hoping to roll over into a normal spin, the 601/604 is a pig at altitudes of 390 and above unless your very lite, 41,000 the service ceiling, these guys didn’t know what they were doing with the airplane or the weather

  20. Someone above stated that the with bleeds off the cabin would only climb to 13500, what this poster is referring to is the safety valves in the pressurization system and yes if there is bleed air for pressurization a malfunction in the pressurization control would be overridden by the safety valves limiting the cabin altitude to 13,5000’, assuming a dual flame out of the engines means no air is available for pressurization so safety valves do nothing...with no cabin pressurization air the altitude of the cabin would climb at nearly 3000 FPM or more so an 8000’ cabin would be at an altitude of 14000’ in 2 minutes of less...no matter what happened this crew was quickly overwhelmed with a multitude of issues to which they were unable to recover from...RIP brother aviators!

  21. Very sad outcome. Speaking from experience, topping a storm (assuming it's developing), ISA temp.rises quickly and if you are nearing the altitude limit of the equipment, please know your planes capability and stop climbing. Aerodynamic stall plus possible flame out due to min. speed AOA values is a lot to deal with in a short time...only 90 seconds before you're hitting the deck.

  22. Knowing Spanish myself, word on YouTube indicates that the pilot has had history of cartel associations, and recorded history of drug trafficking. Has had several detainment in airiports and getting off scot-free. Talk about connected proxy pawns. Even to the extent of "transporting the son of Gaddafi" a few years ago, which coincides with this articke from WashPo...


    All speculation, conspiracy, and theory, sure... but "attempts of landing the plane" without long traces of ground marks is already suspicious in itself. Charred, and burned as well instead of loose pieces everywhere and widely spread.

  23. In my 39 years experience in aeronautics, I believe the pilot as he was of military extraction he was kind of stubborn and didn't choose to deviate the route to avoid the storm cell with CB's area.

    I believe the airplane entered the bad weather and started to climb as he was feeling severe turbulence and heavy ice formation. Then suddenly at 40,000ft, both engines had a "Flame Out" and by that with no bleed air, a depressurization took place. Maybe the pilot put on his O2 mask and started a NO POWER descent while there was daylight and as he couldn't restart the engines he made an emergency landing but with bad luck, the airplane caught fire and nobody could survive. Also if there were a depressurization and passengers didn't have an O2 supply they were incapacitated to exit the airplane in fire or they were already dead. At 40,000ft hypoxia is fast and consciousness last no more than 15 seconds.

  24. Boy are you clueless after 39 years,

  25. Actually Captfranz has a valid point except for the emergency landing part, see; Pinnacle Airlines Flight 3701, same scenario. I believe the engines probably flamed out.


  26. The ADS-B data indicates a rapid pitch up just under 41k.

    Not the altitude to be doing that.

    I never met an autopilot I did not like, but to the contrary, I have never found one yet that I would take my eyes off of for more than 30 sec.

    Sad to see.

  27. My guess is that they were trying to outclimb weather (not really the airplane to do this in). Got into a deep stall. Challenger series lost 2 AC during certification with test pilots and stall/spin parachutes deployed (to get out of spin - stall).

  28. Thanks CapFranz and Bryan for the info. Now a lot of this is making a ton of sense from the arm-chair. Pinnacle Airlines Flight 3701 link, wow. That's one heck of an education on flame-out's right there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinnacle_Airlines_Flight_3701
    One heck of a read.

  29. agreed, that Pinnacle crash is a crazy story! Couple of test-pilot wannabees.

  30. It all makes sense with the loss of ads-b data transmission at 40k. Engine flameout=loss of instruments and ads-b power. Wow. That's just too simple imo. Comparing this accident to Pinnacle Airlines Flight 3701 is indeed a great primer on this... I think. It's just a guess. Thanks for all the awesome references in trying to understand what happened here.


  31. Pinnacle Airlines, Bombardier CL-65, N8396A, crashed into a residential area about 2.5 miles south of Jefferson City Memorial Airport. The airplane was on a repositioning flight from Little Rock National Airport, to Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport. During the flight, both engines flamed out after a pilot-induced aerodynamic stall and were unable to be restarted. Contributing to this accident were (1) the core lock engine condition, which prevented at least one engine from being restarted, and (2) the airplane flight manuals that did not communicate to pilots the importance of maintaining a minimum airspeed to keep the engine cores rotating.


  32. Out of curiosity, Ref Pinnacle 3701 - why would -

    "engine 2 turbine was operating at 300 °C above the maximal redline temperature of 900 °C at 41,000 feet"

    Seems there would have been red lights and alarms going off to warn of this long before the threshold was even reached. Permanent engine damage was eminent to go that far.

    But, at the same time, would abuse of full thrust cause that temp?

    Educate me please.

  33. Bryan
    Jim B

    Check this pícture and two twits please:




  34. Jim, the NTSB must have a logical explanation. The excerpt was from their final report Sir!


  35. I agree but in the summary it is said [what] was happening but not necessarily [why] the temperature was so high.

    An acquaintance says the CRJ-200's do not have FADEC controls on the engines.

    What further puzzles me is after the flight (if it had been successful) the engine data logger would have told the mx people the engine was cooked and time-wise by who.

    People who abuse engines do not maintain careers.

  36. I don't think it was a (un)controlled landing, ie. hard landing because there are no ground scars. Typically airplanes shed parts and leave a trail of debris when there is forward motion. It looks like he fell out of the sky. Another possibility is he got into a aerodynamic stall at altitude and just kept pulling back on the control yoke until he hit the ground with nearly no forward motion. Crazier things have happened. See; Air France flight 447.

  37. I made an earlier post under the name Leo. Here is a point for the pilots in here, those of you that encounter weather whether IFR or VFR. Within weather is turbulence, maybe light or maybe heavy. If you are so unfortunate as to encounter heavy turbulence, the type that bounces the airplane so violently that everything flies around and you are pulled against the limits of your harness ( seat belts ) ... you can completely forget about trying to manipulate all of the instrument panel and console button/lever pushes. That includes the autopilot, trim wheel, nav inputs,, radio inputs etc. you are barely able to manipulate the power lever(s). It is total chaos, fright level goes up exponentially. Couple all of this with entry into an aerodynamic stall and you have the recipe for disaster.
    All to often we read about aircraft falling from the sky after encountering weather and the immediate conclusion is spatial disorientation. That is only part of the story. More than likely it also involved extreme turbulence. Some of these aircraft had modern, very capable autopilots. We would think that the pilot could have simply pushed wing leveler, or dialed in altitude hold and or speed hold. Just consider that those options disappear when you are being violently shaken.
    So if I pass on my 42 years of experience to anyone that reads this, before you consider yourself competent in all phases of flight, make an investment in yourself. Find a skilled acrobatic instructor, go up in a high performance acrobatic airplane ( Extra 300 or the like ) and experience high G spacial disorientation and recovery techniques.
    Secondly, make it a point of no exclusion to avoid heavy weather, whether above or below. Study the in flight pilot reports, study the winds aloft and truly know how to decider them. Learn how to recover without the aid of auto pilots, using pure pilot skills.
    Fly safely. Live to be an old, not bold pilot.

  38. my username is FlatSpinPA38in2001
    I was a Tomahawk IFR and also all kinds of maneuvers including spins instructor for years. Those T tails like also on that CH 601 are harder to get out of spins due the turbulence of the wings when high AOA hitting the high up there T tail and making the elevator ineffective. So dont get them T tails into deep stalls or spins unless you are dam good recovering them.

    The capt. of this crash,i read had a bad reputation as an arsehole. How the F you try to pull up hard to jump over top of a storm at over the service ceiling and slow speed and expect not to stall the airplane. Also he was highly overheating the engines way over the redlines. He was used to abuse the airplane, a lot..

    The dam idiot Capt. used to brag about how abusive to the airplane he was (by overspeeding it or overclimbing) it. You cannot fly with arseholes like that. Report them instead. but noo!! In crooked mexico, and most USA too, these pig pilots keep bragging and abusing airplanes until they kill a few passengers.

    THEN, AND ONLY THEN, the cowards pilots who knew about him report he was very dangerous.. After they kill others or destroy airplanes. Cowards let all kind of abuses happen. You cannot let those Pig Pilots keep killing passengers like that.. Speak up, dam cowards. Be a real man. Dont let those Pig Pilots kill in front of you.

  39. Where did you find any info on him?

  40. The first deep stall or super stall occurred in October 1963 during the flight test program of the BAC-111, the British airliner with rear mounted engines and a T-tail.

    When I was a young aircraft engineer in the Lockheed C-5A program, one of my colleagues who had worked at BAC told me the story of the crash. On the previous test flight, the plane entered a deep stall, but recovered because there was some atmospheric turbulence that "knocked" the plane out of the stall. The Chief of Aerodynamics was dismissive of the event reported by the pilots and said it was not possible for that to happen. He and the chief test pilot had a great argument that ended with something like "Show me and then I'll believe" The subsequent test flight occurred on October 22, a pretty calm day.

    They intentionally entered a stall at 16000' and never recovered. The flight data system showed that the pilot performed every possible combination of flight controls and power, including full power on one engine and full reverse on the other. It took a couple of minutes to pancake into the ground, killing all 7 on board.

  41. Scary! Braniff was still flying the BAC-111 in the 80's...and the takeoff rolls were really long!

  42. As the saying goes: There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold tomatoes in the applesauce!

  43. Im sure i saw this plane crash.. who can give me more info

  44. I’m surprised no one mentioned the possibility of strong vertical updrafts/downdrafts. That combined with convective turbulence could have lead to the stall.

    Long ago, I was in a Learjet at 43,000 feet racing westbound & trying to get between two thunderstorms that were closing between me. The air was smooth & I was in clear air. But, I was really close to both cells....

    All of a sudden, my VSI pegged full scale down. I had no choice but to shove my nose down quickly in order to maintain flying speed & not stall.

  45. When the model plane mentioned was in a flat spin it descended very slowly. When it impacted the ground, damage was usually limited to twisted wire landing gear. Finally, by climbing to higher altitudes each time, I was able to get it to recover from the flat spin after several rotations.